Small film canisters from Leica - Are they any good for bulk film?

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igmolinav

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Hi,

Long, long time ago, Leica produced some metal canisters for 35mm. film.
They looked like the small metal canisters you get when buying a new roll of
fresh 35mm. film, but with the difference that these ones are not disposable.
The quality looks very good too, because the metal is thicker. Perhaps
you have seen them on e-bay, or at your local shop.

I only know that they are made of thicker metal, as mentioned before,
and that they may have also been required to be used with some models
of rangefinders back then.

My question to you guys is, can one use this type of small metal canisters
with the currently made bulk loaders?

Is there something I should be aware with regard to these metal canisters?

My local shop has two of them and I would like to buy them, but I don't know
much about them and I don't know what I should be aware if I happen to buy
them.

Thank you in advance, kind regards!
 

AgX

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There are two aspects to this:

-) in the long past refilling in whatever way was popular to save costs for the cassettes

-) the cassettes offered by camera manufacturers themselves(not only Leitz) had as special feature a rotating-door
 

BAC1967

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I use the FILCA cassettes in my Barnack Leicas but I find they don’t work very well in most bulk loaders. Watson bulk loaders are designed to accommodate them by taking out a plastic insert but I still find they don’t work great. Leica made an AFLOO loader for them but you have to do it in a darkroom. I open my bulk Lloyd or Watson loaders in the darkroom and feed the film out to my AFLOO. Leica also made a FOOVA bulk loader for them but the are very rare and cost a few thousand dollars. Even the AFLOO loaders are getting kind of expensive, over $100.

With the AFLOO you have to take the cassette apart and load the spool then put the cassette back together. The part I struggle with is feeding the film out of the cassette after it’s all together. I put a piece of masking tape with a tab on the end that makes it easier to get a grip on the film to pull it out. I know anyone that uses FILCA cassettes has their own tricks for loading them. Some just pull out a length of film and load it onto the cassette by hand.

The FILCA cassettes are very well made and will last through the next ice age unless you run over it with a tank.

Leica IIIc with VIDOM and FILCA by Bryan Chernick, on Flickr
 
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igmolinav

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Hi,

Thank you for your messages and thank you for the wonderful information : )!!!

I think i would be an IXMOO user because the camera I use is a Leica M2.

I hope it can fit my bulk loader. I'll look at the brand name and I let you guys
know asap.

Thank you again, kind regards!
 

AgX

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As I countlessly posted here, one does not need a bulk loader to load cassettes. So if those cassettes would not fit a bulk loader, no problem.

Unless... one wants one or several loaders at hand, for hassle-free loading of a finite number of frames.
 

Nitroplait

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In most cases the cassettes will fit into the loader, even if the loader doesn't have provisions to close the cassette.
In that case, the loader can still be used, the cassette just have to be removed and closed by hand in the dark (a changing bag for example).
It takes some practice. I have 2 generations of FILCA's, IXMOO and dedicated cassettes for Nikon F and F2 - all a little different in the way they operate and I still make mistakes sometimes.
Regular cassettes are more trouble free and universally useable but less charming.
 

AgX

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My question to you guys is, can one use this type of small metal canisters
with the currently made bulk loaders?

I got no idea what loaders are currently made, but those from Watson and from Deutgen were able to open and close Leica cassettes (most likely only the later Leica model).
 
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igmolinav

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Hi,

Thank you for your messages AgX and Nitroplait : )!!! They are very encouraging!

I would also like to learn to load without using a bulk loader.

I'll keep you posted! I'll just try to sort some things on my end.

Thank you again, kind regards!
 

AgX

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I would also like to learn to load without using a bulk loader.
There is nothing to learn.

I did so after processing myself my 4th film, without even knowing about the existence of such as a bulk-loader, without internet, without any text book etc. Why can't you?

All you need is a dark room, you may wait until night, may cover slits under doors etc. You need a glass or porcellain bowl, the bulk film, a reloadable cassette, a piece of tape, a pair of scissors.

It might be a good idea to have a look at a readymade cassette to see how the spool and film is orientated, you might take this cassette as reference with you in the dark
 

Saganich

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The Watson will accept the Leitz cassettes (Lloyds will not) but they are fiddley. For example, while turning the handle to load film the cassette will want to close, so you have to keep pressure on the knob while winding to prevent it from closing. Also, the slot in the cassette spool is deeper than standard spools so it's easy for the winding side to disengage while winding...things like that. Attaching the film to the cassette spool is a bit of a trick when using a bulk loader because the cassette has to be intact. The film leader has to be cut on both sides as symmetrically as possible so it can be inserted in the center slot in the spool. Another method is to keep a short leader in the spool and tape a new film on the end of the leader, like with used cassettes from the photo labs. Also, the cassettes have some felt-like material inside the ends and if it is degraded the spool will have extra friction when spooling, advancing in camera, and rewinding potentially causing trouble. I had to retire one cassette because the film would break-off the spool when rewinding due to the added friction from the felt being degraded..
 

summicron1

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Hi,

Thank you for your messages and thank you for the wonderful information : )!!!

I think i would be an IXMOO user because the camera I use is a Leica M2.

I hope it can fit my bulk loader. I'll look at the brand name and I let you guys
know asap.

Thank you again, kind regards!


There are several bulk loaders that can reload a Leica cassette. The Watson does it very nicely. If you look at the inside of the knob opposite the crank you can see where it fits over the end of the film cassette and engages the knob to turn the gate closed with the loader still closed.

The key is putting the assembled cassette into the loader with the gate open, then rolling the film on, then turning the knob opposite the crank to close the gate BEFORE you open the loader.

So you have to trim the film end to insert it into the spool in the cassette which does not need to be precise -- I just trim the sprockets off both sides for about an inch and that is enough. If you look at the take-up spool in the cassette you will see a little "V" engraved near one of the slots -- that's where the film goes in.

you DO know that for the M2 you have to use a chrome knob cassette, right? The black knob ones won't fit -- they are too tall and are only for LTM Leicas. The chrome knob ones will work in the screw mount cameras, however.

I love using Leica cassettes -- they are dust-free and last forever. You MUST, however, be careful about processing -- send it to some idiot who doesn't know how they work they will get destroyed -- this is sad experience talking.
 

AgX

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The Deutgen loader has a seperare knob for operating the door of a Leica-cassette. But I never came it across, moreover it got a light trap from velt.
 

JerseyDoug

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The right bulk loader is a MUCH easier way to load a cassette than fumbling around with a five foot length of film in a darkroom. Hopefully someone who actually uses a bulk loader with an IXMOO cassette will comment. I can say from my own experience that a Watson 100 works well with a FILCA (black knob) Leica cassette, a Nikon F cassette, a Nikon F2 cassette, and a Kodak Snap-Cap cassette. A Watson 66 or Alden 74 bulk loader works well with all of these cassettes, EXCEPT for the FILCA, but it can be easily modified to work with the FILCA too. If you buy a Watson 100 be sure it includes the removable shim. Many of them have been lost.
 

AgX

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The right bulk loader is a MUCH easier way to load a cassette than fumbling around with a five foot length of film in a darkroom.

Unless you want to meter exactly the film length for spooling a low-exp. cassette, you never have to handle "a five foot length of film" or even any length of film at all, when loading film without a bulk loader.
Bulk loaders have benefits but they are not necessarily the best way to go. I got six or so loaders, but typically I load by hand.

I use a variety of films in bulk. If I do not want to spool a great number of cassettes in advance, or when I do not want to take a bulk roll out of the freezer each time for a few cassettes, or when I do not know in advance how much of what type I shall need, I put various loaders with different films in them by the side to be able to spool a cassette at any time at any place.

Some cameras stop exposing after exp. 36. Spooling more film into the cassette then means wasting. In such cases a loader is benefitial too, but with a bit of testing beforehand one can be exact with handspooling too.


But a loader can also be detrimental, if it needs a strip exposed at the start being long enough to later in the camera to appear pre-exposed in the filmgate as last frame, unknowingly.
Such cannot happen at handspooling.
 
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rulnacco

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Over the years, I've been lucky to acquire, for very reasonable prices indeed, nine IXMOOs. I shoot them in my M3, and also in my M6--my London second-hand Leica dealer had a black chrome base plate to fit the tulip takeup spool in the M6 that also had the plate/key for opening and closing the cassettes (which the M6 normally lacks). He benevolently let me negotiate it to a very affordable price for me. I even have five of the black plastic canisters the IXMOOs came housed in originally, and four of the aluminum, Leica-stamped canisters which I think were actually made for the FILCA, but work just fine--and are very classy--with my IXMOOs. Nine is a nice number, as it's just about precisely half a 100-foot roll of film.

I use a Watson loader. I find that if I turn the crank for 39 clicks (I just count them, I don't bother resetting the counter each time) and a little extra, I can get 35 exposures on a roll--the right length for a 7x5 Clearfile negative page. I do lose an exposure at the end of the roll because I load the end of the film into the IXMOO in daylight, to make sure it goes in properly centered, rather than fumbling around with that in the dark. So the very end of the film is exposed. I always just try not to shoot anything super important on what should be the last frame of a roll.

When you trim the end of the film to insert it into the IXMOO, the correct distance is three sprocket holes. If you start cutting from just beyond the third hole and angle toward the approximate center of the strip of film, you'll get it right. If you're using an M2 or M3, you don't have to trim the leader of the film to the modern shape, as if you cut it straight across (I generally round the corners a bit, which makes it easier to load it on the reel for developing), it will slide into the flange on the takeup spool just fine. If you are going to shoot it in a camera with the quick-loading tulip takeup spool (M4 and later), you will find it a lot easier to load the film if you trim it to approximate commercial rolls of film. I think the actual distance on factory-trimmed rolls is like seven sprocket holes, but 5 or 6 will work just fine and saves a tiny bit of film.

After loading your film, make sure you turn the knob on the loader in the correct direction to close the cassette. Remember, it turns counterclockwise. Some of the cassettes can be a little stubborn to close (you're pitting the pretty precisely-fitting metal of the cassette against the plastic of the loader) so listen carefully for a click telling you it's closed...and locked. I've found that even if it doesn't fully lock, *normally* it will close far enough that the cassette's film gate is shut completely; just make sure when you take it out of the loader to turn it the small extra bit of the way so it actually locks until you put it in the camera and unlock it by locking the baseplate.

When you finish the roll of film and are opening the cassette for processing, gently--I said *gently*--pull back the locking tab in order to rotate the inner part of the cassette. You don't need to pull on it much at all. I've seen a few IXMOOs in camera store drawers and on eBay where the locking tab had been bent back forcefully enough that it could no longer properly lock the cassette closed.

Here's an important thing to remember:
when you are unloading the film for processing, do *not* try to pull the end of the film out of the spindle. It's far, far better if you push the remaining bit of film *through* the spindle instead of pulling it out. So as you're loading it on to the processing reel in the darkroom/changing bag, just cut it straight across when you reach the end of the roll. Later, when you're cleaning up, if you take your scissors and lop off one side of the little tag end of remaining film from the end of the roll, you can easily push the rest through and remove it that way. The spindle is designed *not* to allow you to pull the film out (at least at all easily), so that when you reach the end of a roll while shooting, you don't accidentally pull the end of the roll out of the cassette when advancing the film if you're caught up in the excitement of the moment, let's say. That's a very nice thing about the IXMOO, you don't have to tape your film at all, a properly functioning spindle will hold it very securely indeed.

The IXMOOs are great! Made out of solid brass, no felt light trap for debris particles to get trapped in--which may leave a scratch along the length of your film. Some of mine are showing their brass mostly, some are still black--you could, if you acquire one that's lost its blacking, use gun blackener to restore it. I haven't bothered on mine, and haven't noticed any problems.

As I sort of mentioned above, you can get about 18 rolls (plus a little extra, usually) of roughly 36 exposures from a 100-foot roll. Nowadays, given the prices of a 100-foot reel, loading your own is not nearly as much of a saving as it used to be. And if you factor in the cost of the IXMOOs--which tend to be quite pricey nowadays--the loader, the occasional bit of wasted film, and your time/effort to do the loading, rolling your own for Leica may actually not be ultimately the most economical or convenient way to go. I just like doing things the old-fashioned (but high-quality and customizable) way, and I've tended to get lucky in finding recently-expired rolls of film at significant discounts. And loading up the film and using the superb old cassettes is just *fun*; if you're not having fun while actually using your Leica, why the hell go to the expense of having one?

Hope that's helpful; if I've left anything out or anyone has a question for someone who uses IXMOOs and loaders regularly, please ask--if I can answer it, I'll definitely be happy to assist.
 
Last edited:

summicron1

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Over the years, I've been lucky to acquire, for very reasonable prices indeed, nine IXMOOs. I shoot them in my M3, and also in my M6--my London second-hand Leica dealer had a black chrome base plate to fit the tulip takeup spool in the M6 that also had the plate/key for opening and closing the cassettes (which the M6 normally lacks). He benevolently let me negotiate it to a very affordable price for me. I even have five of the black plastic canisters the IXMOOs came housed in originally, and four of the aluminum, Leica-stamped canisters which I think were actually made for the FILCA, but work just fine--and are very classy--with my IXMOOs. Nine is a nice number, as it's just about precisely half a 100-foot roll of film.

I use a Watson loader. I find that if I turn the crank for 39 clicks (I just count them, I don't bother resetting the counter each time) and a little extra, I can get 35 exposures on a roll--the right length for a 7x5 Clearfile negative page. I do lose an exposure at the end of the roll because I load the end of the film into the IXMOO in daylight, to make sure it goes in properly centered, rather than fumbling around with that in the dark. So the very end of the film is exposed. I always just try not to shoot anything super important on what should be the last frame of a roll.

When you trim the end of the film to insert it into the IXMOO, the correct distance is three sprocket holes. If you start cutting from just beyond the third hole and angle toward the approximate center of the strip of film, you'll get it right. If you're using an M2 or M3, you don't have to trim the leader of the film to the modern shape, as if you cut it straight across (I generally round the corners a bit, which makes it easier to load it on the reel for developing), it will slide into the flange on the takeup spool just fine. If you are going to shoot it in a camera with the quick-loading tulip takeup spool (M4 and later), you will find it a lot easier to load the film if you trim it to approximate commercial rolls of film. I think the actual distance on factory-trimmed rolls is like seven sprocket holes, but 5 or 6 will work just fine and saves a tiny bit of film.

After loading your film, make sure you turn the knob on the loader in the correct direction to close the cassette. Remember, it turns counterclockwise. Some of the cassettes can be a little stubborn to close (you're pitting the pretty precisely-fitting metal of the cassette against the plastic of the loader) so listen carefully for a click telling you it's closed...and locked. I've found that even if it doesn't fully lock, *normally* it will close far enough that the cassette's film gate is shut completely; just make sure when you take it out of the loader to turn it the small extra bit of the way so it actually locks until you put it in the camera and unlock it by locking the baseplate.

When you finish the roll of film and are opening the cassette for processing, gently--I said *gently*--pull back the locking tab in order to rotate the inner part of the cassette. You don't need to pull on it much at all. I've seen a few IXMOOs in camera store drawers and on eBay where the locking tab had been bent back forcefully enough that it could no longer properly lock the cassette closed.

Here's an important thing to remember:
when you are unloading the film for processing, do *not* try to pull the end of the film out of the spindle. It's far, far better if you push the remaining bit of film *through* the spindle instead of pulling it out. So as you're loading it on to the processing reel in the darkroom/changing bag, just cut it straight across when you reach the end of the roll. Later, when you're cleaning up, if you take your scissors and lop off one side of the little tag end of remaining film from the end of the roll, you can easily push the rest through and remove it that way. The spindle is designed *not* to allow you to pull the film out (at least at all easily), so that when you reach the end of a roll while shooting, you don't accidentally pull the end of the roll out of the cassette when advancing the film if you're caught up in the excitement of the moment, let's say. That's a very nice thing about the IXMOO, you don't have to tape your film at all, a properly functioning spindle will hold it very securely indeed.

The IXMOOs are great! Made out of solid brass, no felt light trap for debris particles to get trapped in--which may leave a scratch along the length of your film. Some of mine are showing their brass mostly, some are still black--you could, if you acquire one that's lost its blacking, use gun blackener to restore it. I haven't bothered on mine, and haven't noticed any problems.

As I sort of mentioned above, you can get about 18 rolls (plus a little extra, usually) of roughly 36 exposures from a 100-foot roll. Nowadays, given the prices of a 100-foot reel, loading your own is not nearly as much of a saving as it used to be. And if you factor in the cost of the IXMOOs--which tend to be quite pricey nowadays--the loader, the occasional bit of wasted film, and your time/effort to do the loading, rolling your own for Leica may actually not be ultimately the most economical or convenient way to go. I just like doing things the old-fashioned (but high-quality and customizable) way, and I've tended to get lucky in finding recently-expired rolls of film at significant discounts. And loading up the film and using the superb old cassettes is just *fun*; if you're not having fun while actually using your Leica, why the hell go to the expense of having one?

Hope that's helpful; if I've left anything out or anyone has a question for someone who uses IXMOOs and loaders regularly, please ask--if I can answer it, I'll definitely be happy to assist.

this is an absolutely amazing and precise instruction sheet on using Leitz film cassettes. I do everything you say, nothing less and nothing more. You could print it out and sell it.

the only thing i would add is that cassettes come with black and chrome knobs. Black knobs only fit in LTM leicas, but chrome knobs fit in both M-series and LTM.

thanks

charlie trentelman
 

rulnacco

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Hi, Charlie! Thanks for the compliment--much appreciated, definitely.

Thanks also for making a very important point indeed. The FILCA was made for screw mount cameras, and cannot be used in M bodies--it is slightly taller (about 2mm) than the IXMOO, and if you try to insert a FILCA into an M body, you will not be able to snug up and lock the baseplate. The IXMOO, on the other hand, can be used in either screw mount or M bodies.

And as you pointed out, *only* the cassettes with the shiny silver chrome knob on top are IXMOOs. The knob on top of a FILCA will be either black or gold (brass). I've seen them both ways, I'm not sure if the gold-knob ones have lost their blacking, or if they just didn't blacken the knobs on some of them.

There's another difference, too, but I'm not sure this is 100% diagnostic: every one of my IXMOOs has "Ernst Leitz Gmbh Wetzlar" engraved on the bottom of it. The only FILCA I have says "Ernst Leitz Wetzlar," omitting the Gmbh. I have read somewhere that this is indeed another way to tell an IXMOO from a FILCA, but I'm not absolutely certain that information is correct in every case.

If you're thinking of buying a Leica cassette, note that having a "Z" engraved on the top does *not* tell you which cassette you have. Both my IXMOOs and my FILCA have that on the top, and to the best of my recollection, *every* Leica cassette I've seen has the Z on top. I've seen eBay sellers on occasion listing what was clearly a FILCA as an IXMOO, and citing the Z as evidence it was an IXMOO.

The only screwy thing I can think of would be if someone put an IXMOO inner cassette with the chrome knob into an outer cassette from a FILCA, which would make it non-functional in an M body. I'm assuming that *could* happen, as the IXMOO inner cassette should fit into a FILCA outer cassette--and given the age of these things, and the fact that you could use either in a screw mount body, that might have happened somewhere along the way with a previous owner. (I can't at present check to see if you can put an IXMOO inner cassette into a FILCA outer cassette and have it work properly, as all my IXMOOs are currently loaded.)

However, if it has the silver chrome knob on top and it says "Ernst Leitz Gmbh Wetzlar" on the bottom, you *should* be pretty confident that you are handling/purchasing an actual IXMOO.
 
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