Sluggish ETRS shutter

FM2N · Mar 5, 2010

Hello All,
I have a Bronica ETRS with a 75mm EII lens and the shutter is sluggish. When I take a photo the shutter seems quick or sometimes very slow. You can hear the mirror fire and get out of the way and the shutter fires at the exact same time but then it also takes what seems like for ever for the lens shutter to open and close. And I don't mean the lens shutter is sluggish in that 1 sec is 2 or a 15th is 1/2 sec. The speeds are on the money but it is slow to react after the shutter buttom has been pushed.
Is the lens shutter going bad?
Can this be fixed with a CLA'd?
Or are the electronics going bad and I should just go over to KEH and pick up another lens?
Can the problem be caused by anything wrong with the body? I don't see how since the mirror is getting out of way.
The battery is brand new. I have tried the lens on a back up body and it does the same thing.
Could it have to do with the battery being cold?
Thanks for the help and sorry for being long winded.
Arthur

Ian Grant · Mar 5, 2010

A CLA should fix it, it's unlikely to be electrical.

Ian

wiltw · Mar 5, 2010

In the ETRS, the mirror has to swing up FULLY before the lens shutter will be triggered. In order for the mirror to swing up fully, there is an interlocking pin from the film back that must permit completion of the mirror upswing, and if the pin is too long, the mirror doesn't complete its travel. I know, because I once purchased a used magazine and had problems that the shutter would not always fire I had to send in both the body and the magazine to get the problem fixed.

I mention this, because perhaps there is something within the body which is preventing the mirror from swinging up fully in a rapid manner, causing the delay to the shutter being triggered in the lens. Or have you recently purchased a used magazine?

FM2N · Mar 5, 2010

I called KOH'S, the bronica guys and they seem to think
that it is the lens shutter that is the problem.
The mirror is firing right and they
also said it would not be the batteries fAult.
He recommended just getting a replacement lens since the lens cla
would cost me $80 and I can get a lens from KEH for Less than that.
Thanks for help
Arthur

wiltw · Mar 5, 2010

The guys at KEH don't understand that the mirror MUST go FULLY up before the shutter will trigger! As you stated, the shutter speed is correct but the triggering is delayed. But checking the body with a second lens would help to isolate the guilty component.

Oh I just re-read your OP and noted that the same lens has the same problem on a second body...that is pretty definitive!

FM2N · Mar 5, 2010

Thanks, I was talking to KOH not KEH.
KOH is the place all bronica people seem to go to get there cameras fixed.
KEH is the place to just purchase lenses.
Is there a way to make the mirror less sluggish?
Arthur

FM2N · Mar 6, 2010

Another interesting development in my saga.
Tested shutter speeds and they were spot on. Tested with back off and they were good. Tested with back on and they were the same. Tested with back on and speed winder attached and they also were the same. All within specs. The only thing that changed from this morning is that the camera has been in my nice warm house for 12 hours. The weak link must be the battery. I guess this will be a warm weather camera from now on.
Thanks
Arthur

lxdude · Mar 6, 2010

FM2N said:
You can hear the mirror fire and get out of the way and the shutter fires at the exact same time but then it also takes what seems like for ever for the lens shutter to open and close. And I don't mean the lens shutter is sluggish in that 1 sec is 2 or a 15th is 1/2 sec. The speeds are on the money but it is slow to react after the shutter buttom has been pushed.
Is the lens shutter going bad?

This, in your original post, is a little unclear. I assume you mean the shutter mechanism fires, meaning it closes before the mirror rises to protect the film, but is then slow to open to time the exposure. I think the problem is that the shutter is sluggish to open. Being cold would make old thickened lubricant thicker and make it hard to open the shutter. Being cold would drop battery voltage and might contribute, but I suspect congealed lubricant is the basic culprit.
I have heard it recommended to put the lens (without caps) in an oven set at a temperature high enough to "uncongeal" the lube, but not high enough to damage the lens. I've heard the temp stated (from different sources) as low as 140F, and as high as 150F. I don't think it's a good idea, as damage is possible, and at best it's probably a temporary fix.

It's also possible the shutter/aperture mechanism is not closing down all the way fast enough due to thickened lube.

I have a 75mm EII, and it started hanging up. It was fine in the summer when I bought it, but when the weather cooled it started giving problems. I would press the button, but the cycle would not complete. If I jiggled the lens on the mount a little the cycle would then complete. I talked to Jimmy Koh, and he told me what he told you- cheaper to buy another. With nothing to lose, I took the back off the lens. I found that the actuating mechanism did have thickened lubricant at various places. I never came near the shutter/aperture mechanism itself, just the linkage that transfers movement to it to close them before exposure and reopen them after winding to the next frame. I carefully cleaned off the old lube with naptha and relubed with light synthetic grease. Now the lens works perfectly.

KWhitmore · Mar 7, 2010

FM2N said:
Another interesting development in my saga.
Tested shutter speeds and they were spot on. Tested with back off and they were good. Tested with back on and they were the same. Tested with back on and speed winder attached and they also were the same. All within specs. The only thing that changed from this morning is that the camera has been in my nice warm house for 12 hours. The weak link must be the battery. I guess this will be a warm weather camera from now on.
Thanks
Arthur

I think perhaps you're right about the temperature issue...my manual says it should be zero or warmer for the camera to function as it should. I tried using mine in -25 degree weather a few years ago...results were not so good. Empty frames and cracked film...

Kathy

FM2N · Mar 7, 2010

It was not as cold as that but even at 25-35 degrees i was amazed at how cold the metal on the bottom of the camera was as well as the speed winder. It felt like it had been in a refridgerator and I know how batteries kept at 34-35 degrees take some time to warm up and work properly.
Thanks for all the help.
Arthur

lxdude · Mar 7, 2010

FM2N said:
It was not as cold as that but even at 25-35 degrees i was amazed at how cold the metal on the bottom of the camera was as well as the speed winder. It felt like it had been in a refridgerator and I know how batteries kept at 34-35 degrees take some time to warm up and work properly.
Thanks for all the help.
Arthur

Take the battery out and put it in a warm place. Let the camera and lens get cold, then put the battery in and see what happens. If things still don't work right you know the battery is not involved. At 34-35 degrees everything should work fine. Battery voltage will always drop as it cools beyond a certain point but it will be sufficient at that temperature. I frequently use cameras with the same 6 volt battery including an ETR-Si at temperatures well below that. Your battery could be bad, even if new, so if you try another that could clear it up.

Bronica recommends a silver oxide battery, with alkaline second. They say lithium can be used in the ETR cameras but in the SQ and GS cameras they actually say, "Forget it".

www.tamron.com/bronica/batteries.asp

So if you're using a lithium battery it could be too marginal. 6V Silver oxide batteries are available on the web with a little searching.
I use these guys: www.mdbattery.com

FM2N · Mar 7, 2010

Good idea. I will give it a try.
Arthur

paul ron · Mar 7, 2010

Arthur, what happens when you fire the lens off camera? Is it hard to move the transport or see any delay? Does this happen with other lenses?

Is there any dealy in the transport of the camera body when fired without a lens?

BTW if the battery runs low or is dead, the camera mechanically fires only at 1/500th at all settings.

FM2N · Mar 8, 2010

Hi Paul,
How does one fire the lens off the camera? I know how to do it with my RB lenses but can't figure how with the bronica lens.

wiltw · Mar 8, 2010

OP said, "I have tried the lens on a back up body and it does the same thing." So either the test conditions have to be identical for it to affect two bodies the same way, or the problem is found within the mechanical linkage of the lens...perhaps gummy lubricants which control triggering of the lens shutter (but not the timing, which is done electrically)

lxdude · Mar 8, 2010

wiltw said:
OP said, "I have tried the lens on a back up body and it does the same thing." So either the test conditions have to be identical for it to affect two bodies the same way, or the problem is found within the mechanical linkage of the lens...perhaps gummy lubricants which control triggering of the lens shutter (but not the timing, which is done electrically)

So if the lens is sluggish and the battery voltage in each body isn't at peak, or lithiums are used, which Bronica consider marginal, then the bodies could affect it the same. The lens appears to have an issue; battery issues might make it more evident.

FM2N · Mar 8, 2010

As of tonight I have purchased two EX Bronica lenses from KEH. When they arrive on wed. I should then be able to test the new lenses against the bodies and the 75mm lens.
I will keep you all updated.
Arthur

lxdude · Mar 8, 2010

FM2N said:
Hi Paul,
How does one fire the lens off the camera? I know how to do it with my RB lenses but can't figure how with the bronica lens.

Look at the back of the lens with the word JAPAN at bottom. Now look at the mount on the right side, almost level with that word. You will see a small projection in a slot. Push that in and you can then move the pins on the back to cock and release the lens. Look through the lens toward a light source and you should see the shutter open and close at 1/500 second. If you move the A/T switch to T, and try it again, the shutter should immediately open and stay open.

This will tell you if the shutter itself is sluggish. It will not tell you if the linkage is too stiff for the camera to easily move it. What I can tell you is, it should take little effort to move the pins with your fingers except at the very end of the cocking cycle. The cocking will work reliably because you are providing the force when cocking the shutter and winding the film. During release the camera is moving the linkage, which must move smoothly and very easily.

Your symptoms as you described them, mimicked mine before I relubed my 75mm. When cooler, say below about 50 degrees F, there was a lag between triggering and shutter opening. After the shutter released the exposure cycle completed normally. Cooler yet, like around 40 F, the mechanism would hang up completely unless I jiggled the lens on the mount, and sometimes not even then.

paul ron · Mar 8, 2010

BTW Arthur, using a pencil eraser, clean the gold contacts on the lens? Also remove the prism? Is that a metered prism?

Shooting the lens off camera will tell us more. If the transport is moving freely and the shutter is still sticking, it's the shutter. If it's a gunked up transport as mentioned, he will notice that right away n the cure is simple.

If you take the battery out of an ETRS, it will shoot at 1/500th. If the battery drains, it gets faster, not slower. The lens is slowed down magnetically by the power sent to it... weak magent, faster speeds.

.

Sluggish ETRS shutter

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