Slow black and white film for 35mm and 120

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Hello, silver halide addicts!

My current photographic project will require some slow black-and-white film. I'll spare you the details! Anyhow, I am aware of Ilford Pan F 50, although I haven't tried it yet. I was wondering if there are any other slowest of the slow black-and-white stocks I'm missing out on?

Sincere thanks for your consideration!

Warm wishes,
Joseph

Juan Valdenebro · May 3, 2021

Hi Joseph,
PanF50+ is a great film.
It has a few limits, though...
It's better for overcast than for direct sunlight because of its design, and it has to be developed quickly: a few days after you expose the first frame.
At EI25 in Perceptol 1+2 it's one of the best looks you can get.
TMax100 is a more stable film. You can use it at EI100 in Xtol, or at EI80-64 in D-76. And at EI50 in Perceptol or MIc-X it's great!
Good luck with your project.

Juan Valdenebro · May 3, 2021

One more thing to consider:
If you need good depth of field, you'll need tripod to be able to stop down your lens...
If you don't need DOF, you can use those films for handheld shooting with fast lenses.

Paul Howell · May 3, 2021

Rollie and Agfa both offer microfiche film in 35mm and 120, ASA 25, here in my part of the world both are out of stock, Ilford Pan F seems to available. If your project does not require a match pair of 35mm and 120 there are many alternatives in 35mm. Photo Wearhouse offers Kodak 2238 Black and White film ISO 6 to 25, and Double X ;respooled movie film. Then many shoot Foma 100 at 50, it made in 35mm and 120, so it depend on how stretchy you are as to what is a low speed film.

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2021

For 35mm, there are a couple ORWO duplicating films (sold by Lomography as Berlin 13 and Fantome 8, the numbers being their ISO speed). Haven't used the Fantome, but I have a bulk roll of the DN21 that Lomography repackages -- it's good stuff, very smooth and excellent resolution in Xtol-R. Not sure where you'd get a 120 version of either one, though -- AFAIK they're made only in 35mm, for intermediate steps or final prints in B&W movie production. They are panchromatic, at least.

Auer · May 3, 2021

Rollei Retro 80S, shoot at ISO 25.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1349019-REG/rollei_810813_retro_black_white.html

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2021

Auer said:
Rollei Retro 80S, shoot at ISO 25.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1349019-REG/rollei_810813_retro_black_white.html

Aaah, and available in 35mm (including bulk), 120, and 4x5!

Alan9940 · May 3, 2021

Just how s-l-o-w are we talkin'? Adox CMS 20 II is about EI 6 when shot in daylight and is tack sharp (if sharpness is any consideration.) Also, available in a few formats. Best to use their specialized developer for this film, though, to get the best out of it, but it's quite nice IMO. Personally, I love my EFKE 25, but that stock is long ago discontinued; just glad I bought 50 rolls when I could get it directly from Croatia.

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Juan Valdenebro said:
Hi Joseph,
PanF50+ is a great film.
It has a few limits, though...
It's better for overcast than for direct sunlight because of its design, and it has to be developed quickly: a few days after you expose the first frame.
At EI25 in Perceptol 1+2 it's one of the best looks you can get.
TMax100 is a more stable film. You can use it at EI100 in Xtol, or at EI80-64 in D-76. And at EI50 in Perceptol or MIc-X it's great!
Good luck with your project.

Juan, hello and sincere thanks!! I was just about to buy some Pan 50 but then I read your message, and I am truly grateful. I had no idea the film was so fussy - in this case, I won't be able to develop the films for at least a few weeks, so perhaps I'll be better off with TMAX 100 at EI50. I already love that stock, but 100 is a little too fast for this project. Full disclosure: I will not be developing these films myself, and will thusly have no say whatsover in the chemical process. That said, I will certainly save your recipe ideas for the future, as I hope to begin developing my own films in the next year or so...again, thanks!

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Juan Valdenebro said:
One more thing to consider:
If you need good depth of field, you'll need tripod to be able to stop down your lens...
If you don't need DOF, you can use those films for handheld shooting with fast lenses.

Hi, yes, this is strictly a tripod situation. It's a sunny day project but I need to be at shutter speeds of 1/15 all the way down to 1 second. I am happy to stop down but I don't want to stop down to something crazy like f32, hence the need for a slow film. I'd love to do this without resorting to an ND filter, but that might be necessary in some cases.

MattKing · May 3, 2021

T-Max 100 exposed at an EI of 50 is very flexible.
You might also consider Ilford XP-2 exposed at an EI of 50 and developed in C41.
What sort of Subject Luminance Range will your subjects have?

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Paul Howell said:
Rollie and Agfa both offer microfiche film in 35mm and 120, ASA 25, here in my part of the world both are out of stock, Ilford Pan F seems to available. If your project does not require a match pair of 35mm and 120 there are many alternatives in 35mm. Photo Wearhouse offers Kodak 2238 Black and White film ISO 6 to 25, and Double X ;respooled movie film. Then many shoot Foma 100 at 50, it made in 35mm and 120, so it depend on how stretchy you are as to what is a low speed film.

Hi Paul, many thanks. I was unaware of the respooled film. This sounds intriguing. If that turns out to be too rich for my budget, I may try Foma 100 at 50, as you've suggested. It occurs to me now that I could also try the same with TMAX 100 or Delta 100 or even FP4. Then there's the idea of pulling the film, but that sort of thing makes me nervous...

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
For 35mm, there are a couple ORWO duplicating films (sold by Lomography as Berlin 13 and Fantome 8, the numbers being their ISO speed). Haven't used the Fantome, but I have a bulk roll of the DN21 that Lomography repackages -- it's good stuff, very smooth and excellent resolution in Xtol-R. Not sure where you'd get a 120 version of either one, though -- AFAIK they're made only in 35mm, for intermediate steps or final prints in B&W movie production. They are panchromatic, at least.

Hi Donald, this is terrific. Fantome Kino might be just the right thing for this project. iso 8?! Wow!

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Auer said:
Rollei Retro 80S, shoot at ISO 25.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1349019-REG/rollei_810813_retro_black_white.html

Very nice, thank you!!

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

Alan9940 said:
Just how s-l-o-w are we talkin'? Adox CMS 20 II is about EI 6 when shot in daylight and is tack sharp (if sharpness is any consideration.) Also, available in a few formats. Best to use their specialized developer for this film, though, to get the best out of it, but it's quite nice IMO. Personally, I love my EFKE 25, but that stock is long ago discontinued; just glad I bought 50 rolls when I could get it directly from Croatia.

50 or slower is where I'm looking. I am very intrigued by the Adox films but sadly I am unable to develop anything myself for the foreseeable future, and I'll be at the mercy of the lab. They're a good lab, certainly, and I can talk to them about developing options. I remember once meeting a photographer from Hungary who went on for many enthusiastic minutes about his love for Efke 25!!!

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

MattKing said:
T-Max 100 exposed at an EI of 50 is very flexible.
You might also consider Ilford XP-2 exposed at an EI of 50 and developed in C41.
What sort of Subject Luminance Range will your subjects have?

Yes, thank you Matt, I'm definitely leaning in that direction, at least for my first attempts. As for the luminance range, it won't be too high, and you will I hope forgive me for not getting any more scientific than that. Actually I was just reading up about that very subject, but in short order my head began to spin...

removed account4 · May 3, 2021

Hi Joseph

Does it have to be film ?
There is "Washi Film" which is actually hand coated Japanese paper you put in your camera
... there used to be a guy in France who was coating and selling it, all formats .. well sort of 35mm, 120 and 4x5
and because it is paper emulsion you can develop it under a safe light with the sea saw method like in the old days..

good luck with your project!
John

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

jnantz said:
Hi Joseph

Does it have to be film ?
There is "Washi Film" which is actually hand coated Japanese paper you put in your camera
... there used to be a guy in France who was coating and selling it, all formats .. well sort of 35mm, 120 and 4x5
and because it is paper emulsion you can develop it under a safe light with the sea saw method like in the old days..

good luck with your project!
John

Hi John, that's fascinating. Sincere thanks for the idea. This project certainly doesn't need to be strictly on film. Much appreciated!

Joseph Bell · May 3, 2021

MattKing said:
T-Max 100 exposed at an EI of 50 is very flexible.
You might also consider Ilford XP-2 exposed at an EI of 50 and developed in C41.
What sort of Subject Luminance Range will your subjects have?

Hi Matt,

xp2 at EI50?! Can I do such a thing! But good fellow, that is 3 stops! Then again, I see your point, I think - c41 can certainly handle that...

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2021

Joseph Bell said:
Hi Donald, this is terrific. Fantome Kino might be just the right thing for this project. iso 8?! Wow!

If you have the ability to bulk load, you might want to contact orwona.com -- they/he hand-rolled 100 feet of DN21 to fit in a bulk loader for me. I'm not sure what the ORWO designation is for the Fantome 8, but he'll know (assuming that's ORWO stock like Babylon 13 is).

Joseph Bell said:
xp2 at EI50?! Can I do such a thing! But good fellow, that is 3 stops! Then again, I see your point, I think - c41 can certainly handle that...

There are lots of examples around of shooting XP2 Super at EI 50 without any change in processing. However, the option also exists to either pull the C-41 (for which XP2 is uniquely suited, because you won't get color shifts or crossover), or to process it in B&W chemistry (also at EI ranging from 50 to 1600 or higher). The latter might be preferred if you want to keep a hint of film grain in your images; at EI 50 in C-41, the film will be effectively grainless, but there's just the faintest hint of grain even at EI 50 if you get it processed in HC-110 etc.

removed account4 · May 3, 2021

Joseph Bell said:
Hi John, that's fascinating. Sincere thanks for the idea. This project certainly doesn't need to be strictly on film. Much appreciated!

here's the link .. http://filmwashi.com/en/

Huss · May 3, 2021

I use Lomo Babylon 13 and Fantome 8 for my slowwww B&W needs.
Fantome 8 (iso 8) is an ortho type film. Reds become black. Babylon 13 (iso 13 ) is regular pan film and actually Orwo 21.
I develop them in Cinestill DF96 Monobath.

Fantome 8 is essentially grain free:

Babyloin 13:

Terrence Brennan · May 3, 2021

Alan9940 said:
Just how s-l-o-w are we talkin'? Adox CMS 20 II is about EI 6 when shot in daylight and is tack sharp (if sharpness is any consideration.) Also, available in a few formats. Best to use their specialized developer for this film, though, to get the best out of it, but it's quite nice IMO. Personally, I love my EFKE 25, but that stock is long ago discontinued; just glad I bought 50 rolls when I could get it directly from Croatia.

Pity that. I loved the EFKE 50; it seemed to hold shadow detail better than any film I have ever seen.

relistan · May 3, 2021

The two slow ADOX films are nice.

ADOX HR-50 is not yet available in 120 but is a really nice film. It’s the same underlying stock as Rollei Retro 80S, but ADOX has speed boosted it and given it a more reasonable curve. (Likely pre-flashed, but we don’t know)

ADOX CMS-20 is an incredibly fine grained document film that can be developed with pictorial contrast.

Another thing to know is that Rollei RPX 25 is the exact same film stock as Rollei Retro 80S. Available in both formats. Usually a little cheaper.

Juan Valdenebro · May 3, 2021

Joseph,
Do you have any developer preference, or will you decide that after deciding which film to use?
You can expose TMX at 25, 12 and 6, with yellow, orange and ND8 filters...
Sharpness is very high, and grain is not visible on wet prints.
If you're planning to scan, it makes more sense using a digital camera.

Slow black and white film for 35mm and 120

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