Slide film - do you expose for how the slide looks or to capture the data?

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rayonline_nz

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I still occasionally shoot some slides althou I might be switching over to C41 and B/W a bit more due to it being more versatile. Re: slide film do you guys expose it for how the slide looks or what you end up doing with it later ie capture the detail?

I have thought about exposing the slide and then maybe underexpose it to make it look like how the scene looked. I am questioning myself that. That would limit myself right?


Looking forward to your comments. Thanks.
 

ic-racer

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In the 1970s and 1980s when I was doing Cibachrome, I favored slightly darker slides for printing. In fact I never had them mounted, I had the Kodachrome returned as a complete roll and cut them in strips of six to file them just like my B&W negatives.
 
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rayonline_nz

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In the 1970s and 1980s when I was doing Cibachrome, I favored slightly darker slides for printing. In fact I never had them mounted, I had the Kodachrome returned as a complete roll and cut them in strips of six to file them just like my B&W negatives.

I can see your view. Less blown highlights. I was thinking if one could with a scene that maybe wasn't an issue. Should I or not underexpose. Hmmm.
 
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Kia ora, Welly—

If your slides show blown highlights or blocked, dense shadows (right to the point of zero detail), they are, in plain-speak, incorrectly exposed (in terms of specific bias, the exposure is often too long to record detail in highlights) and this very often occurs when the film is exposed in conditions it was not designed for e.g. beside the uniqueness of Kodachrome, which often looked "OK" in bright sunlight, modern day E6 films are a different and altogether-testy beast to poke: they can look just awful in bright point light (a fault I see far too often — the message about exposure just does not get through), and they certainly did not print well to the Ilfochrome Classic print process when exposed in a cavalier, careless way. Conversely, take any of them out in hazy to overcast light and modulate exposure and you will have both correct highlights and shadow detail — in essence, the slides will be beautiful to gaze at on the lightbox.

Exposure must also account for the end use of the slides; projection-only use is not the same as e.g. print-only use. Exposure for each is unique to deliver the best results.
 
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rayonline_nz

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Exposure must also account for the end use of the slides; projection-only use is not the same as e.g. print-only use. Exposure for each is unique to deliver the best results.

Thanks for that. It's the end use of it. In the past I have kinda went with that it looks beautiful on the lightbox.

Just a related question with modern E6 film. I know they work well on a hazy day. How do they deal with surreal sunsets and sunrise? I like explosive sunsets and sunrises. Film like Velvia is contrasty and shooting a constrasty scene. Just the other day, I went out with a few grad filters (2 and 3 stops in the soft and hard transitions). I found that I really had to be near the water where the sun was reflecting off, if I was further back the foreground rocks wasn't really lit by the sun the dynamic range was just too wide. I stood there 30mins before sunset and 30min after sunset the closest I was, at best maybe 4 or 5 stops (from the foreground to the sky). I even had times when the difference was 7 stops difference. I came to the conclusion I couldn't really shoot it. I could had stacked a 3 stop ahrd with a 2 stop soft perhaps but challenging.

When I learnt photog. Galen Rowell shot slide film with punchy sun scenes.
 
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Reading your post, I can envision the scene you were grappling with, even though I am only vaguely familiar with Wellington and the harbour area!

"Surreal sunsets and sunrise"?? "Explosive sunsets and sunrises..." Jeez, you been watching too many Hollywood hitters!? :laugh:
But to the answer: Dunno, I'm usually looking the other way (more about this in a bit!...)

Although I am active in the sunrise and sunset hours, I am pointing my camera the other way -- east! No great ball of fire there, of course, but this is where the soft, beautiful pastel tones of the afterglow (the correct terminology is the Rise of the Belt of Venus and Earth's Shadow which progressively becomes thicker and higher after sunset in the west, until it peeters out into a deep then dusky mauve and blue then to darkness). And here's the thing: if you want to, you can actually meter this arty-farty display (the colours, not the plain sky).

New Zealand, like Australia, is bathed in the white glare of a southern temperate light, longer in the morning and shorter in the evening.That is to say, places like the Southern Alps are especially difficult to meter and photograph well at sunrise and sunset because of the big variation in contrast of shadowed foregrounds and brightly illuminated backgrounds (of mountains, mountains and yet more mountains!). I recall [New Zealand photographer] Craig Potton telling me in 2006 that virtually all of his images of the Southern Alps in his book required "reworking" because of the difficulty of the exposure (he used Ektachrome and Kodachrome).

It seems you were having an extreme confrontation with the light; I've been there, done that too (in 35mm). Velvia cannot take in that much variation in contrast (+/- 2 stops in bright point light, rising to 6.5 stops in overcast to flat light; to 8 stops for Provia 100F). The solution is not more and many ND filters, but finding the right balance of light. No, we can't play God and request a Command Performance, but we can only hope!

I avoid sunrise and sunsets because of the extreme contrast that Velvia 50 (particularly) is not able to satisfactorily handle, and I don't waste time trying to get a leg over it.

How the camera meters vs other options also matters. I do not use in-camera metering (which is rudimentary 50-year old tech!), but multispot-mean weighted averaged metering with shift of the mid-tone. What are you using, and how?

Compromise of your scene (beside abandonment, as a last, teary-eyed resort!) is likely; rather than vast open spaces of contrasty (black) nothingness, scout around to include a particularly striking or worthwhile central point of interest in the frame, and let the sunrise or sunset take back seat to that, but I strongly suspect the camera will blow out the background completely in order to bring up the foreground correctly -- this is what I am reading. My solution would be to go out there immediately after a storm (a typical New Zealand 'southerly clearance', in Kiwi-speak!) when the light is software and the contrast lower. I had one such situation at Milford Sound in 2015, emerging from the camper after 48 hours stuck in it because of the storm. The fiery red glow over Mitre Peak was a sight to behold yet it lasted all of 3 minutes and I had to settle for a a glow more orange then fiery!

My methodology with multispot metering is to never meter the sky unless it has a very definite interest and/or variation in tonality e.g. clouds that are backlit by the sun, creating the 'tiara effect'. It is a dreadful coincidence that at the time of writing this, 90km away in Melbourne I have a couple of slides being printed that would demonstrate where the emphasis is put in a scene where both the main subject and patterned sky are competing for attention.
 

trendland

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I still occasionally shoot some slides althou I might be switching over to C41 and B/W a bit more due to it being more versatile. Re: slide film do you guys expose it for how the slide looks or what you end up doing with it later ie capture the detail?

I have thought about exposing the slide and then maybe underexpose it to make it look like how the scene looked. I am questioning myself that. That would limit myself right?


Looking forward to your comments. Thanks.
The general "rule" concerning exposure of film is very simple (with digital there are a lot of options of correct/best exposure/raw/post - what is from my point the main reason of misunderstending film exposure today :

1) [c41] you are absolutely allowed to "overexposure" color negative/bw negative !
The window of best exposure is 1 - 1,5 stops overexposure with c41/a bit more with bw film!
But of course you may calibrate your workflow with negative film on manufacturers recomanndation
(ISO/box speed)! Because with overexposure in that way I mentioned you will lost speed of your films.
In other words : You shouldn't be afraid when you overexposure negative film !
But have in mind that filmcharacteristics will suffer when overexposure is done "overdriven"
But be aware : Underexposure with negative film will destroy film characteristics !
C41 is more effected than bw films! (some bw experts may go straight to the baricades:whistling:...sorry folks) but from my experience you can totally forget shots of 3stops underexposure with c41 because it is outside of tollerance of modern films.:pinch:!
Bw with underexposure of 3stops isn't looking fine but one may live with it:sick:!
So the "window of max.underexposure" with c41 is around 0,5 - max 1,5 stops. (bw has more:tongue:)!

With this background we come to slide film E6 in short (No overexposure) because tollerance in highlighted area could be 1/3 stop !

Underexposure of E6 (max. 1/2 - 2/3 stops) let slides looking a bit dark...:D...but sometimes
the sceene you have shot is "indeed" dark!
You may tollerate this if you project slides:smile:!
Overexposed highlights from E6 does show NO information (the film is blank then)!
The same is said to underexposed color negative (blank film) but the real difference between is :
You sometimes have to underexposure c41 around 3 - 5 stops before the film is total blank( in shadow areas - relative to the contrast of a sceene) meanwhile E6 will show a totally white sky (blank film) from 1 simple stops overexposure:cry::cry::cry:!
So a correct exposure with E6 is ALLWAYS necessary,

AND : "note highlights" when shooting slides!!!!:wink:

with regards
 

trendland

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Reading your post, I can envision the scene you were grappling with, even though I am only vaguely familiar with Wellington and the harbour area!

"Surreal sunsets and sunrise"?? "Explosive sunsets and sunrises..." Jeez, you been watching too many Hollywood hitters!? :laugh:
But to the answer: Dunno, I'm usually looking the other way (more about this in a bit!...)

Although I am active in the sunrise and sunset hours, I am pointing my camera the other way -- east! No great ball of fire there, of course, but this is where the soft, beautiful pastel tones of the afterglow (the correct terminology is the Rise of the Belt of Venus and Earth's Shadow which progressively becomes thicker and higher after sunset in the west, until it peeters out into a deep then dusky mauve and blue then to darkness). And here's the thing: if you want to, you can actually meter this arty-farty display (the colours, not the plain sky).

New Zealand, like Australia, is bathed in the white glare of a southern temperate light, longer in the morning and shorter in the evening.That is to say, places like the Southern Alps are especially difficult to meter and photograph well at sunrise and sunset because of the big variation in contrast of shadowed foregrounds and brightly illuminated backgrounds (of mountains, mountains and yet more mountains!). I recall [New Zealand photographer] Craig Potton telling me in 2006 that virtually all of his images of the Southern Alps in his book required "reworking" because of the difficulty of the exposure (he used Ektachrome and Kodachrome).

It seems you were having an extreme confrontation with the light; I've been there, done that too (in 35mm). Velvia cannot take in that much variation in contrast (+/- 2 stops in bright point light, rising to 6.5 stops in overcast to flat light; to 8 stops for Provia 100F). The solution is not more and many ND filters, but finding the right balance of light. No, we can't play God and request a Command Performance, but we can only hope!

I avoid sunrise and sunsets because of the extreme contrast that Velvia 50 (particularly) is not able to satisfactorily handle, and I don't waste time trying to get a leg over it.

How the camera meters vs other options also matters. I do not use in-camera metering (which is rudimentary 50-year old tech!), but multispot-mean weighted averaged metering with shift of the mid-tone. What are you using, and how?

Compromise of your scene (beside abandonment, as a last, teary-eyed resort!) is likely; rather than vast open spaces of contrasty (black) nothingness, scout around to include a particularly striking or worthwhile central point of interest in the frame, and let the sunrise or sunset take back seat to that, but I strongly suspect the camera will blow out the background completely in order to bring up the foreground correctly -- this is what I am reading. My solution would be to go out there immediately after a storm (a typical New Zealand 'southerly clearance', in Kiwi-speak!) when the light is software and the contrast lower. I had one such situation at Milford Sound in 2015, emerging from the camper after 48 hours stuck in it because of the storm. The fiery red glow over Mitre Peak was a sight to behold yet it lasted all of 3 minutes and I had to settle for a a glow more orange then fiery!

My methodology with multispot metering is to never meter the sky unless it has a very definite interest and/or variation in tonality e.g. clouds that are backlit by the sun, creating the 'tiara effect'. It is a dreadful coincidence that at the time of writing this, 90km away in Melbourne I have a couple of slides being printed that would demonstrate where the emphasis is put in a scene where both the main subject and patterned sky are competing for attention.

Yes - Poisson Du Jour - "right said" : With experience of many years each photographers has his own
indication what best exposure to different lighted sceenes will require.

So over the years some "individual" rules concerning exposure films are established to good photographers.

I did explain the ground rules to the OP because he asked concerning "underexposure".

BTW : highlights with night shots are a real nighmare to some photographers. Why ? I decided sometimes :
NO PROBLEM let it come real overexposured......:cool:!

4c7dac8323373c5f.jpg


......sorry I mentioned this example some times before.....but I made just a couple of
" nearly aceptable " shots in my whole livetime...:redface::redface::redface:!

with regards:whistling:..
 

thuggins

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A correctly exposed slide will look exactly like the original scene, whether it was bright sun or heavy overcast. I've shot thousands of slides. Many thru an OM-4T, which has one of the most sophisticated metering systems of any camera, but others with 70 year old folders and a 70 year old selenium meter. Every one of them has come out perfect unless I just screwed something up. Stop second guessing and trust your meter.

That being said, Velvia 100 is a horrible film. So contrasty and dark that it's pretty useless for real world scenes. Velvia 50 is much better, but still contrasty. Provia has a tremendous range and is very user friendly. I've only shot a couple rolls of the new Ektachrome, but it looks very accommodating too.
 

trendland

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Thanks for that. It's the end use of it. In the past I have kinda went with that it looks beautiful on the lightbox.

Just a related question with modern E6 film. I know they work well on a hazy day. How do they deal with surreal sunsets and sunrise? I like explosive sunsets and sunrises. Film like Velvia is contrasty and shooting a constrasty scene. Just the other day, I went out with a few grad filters (2 and 3 stops in the soft and hard transitions). I found that I really had to be near the water where the sun was reflecting off, if I was further back the foreground rocks wasn't really lit by the sun the dynamic range was just too wide. I stood there 30mins before sunset and 30min after sunset the closest I was, at best maybe 4 or 5 stops (from the foreground to the sky). I even had times when the difference was 7 stops difference. I came to the conclusion I couldn't really shoot it. I could had stacked a 3 stop ahrd with a 2 stop soft perhaps but challenging.

When I learnt photog. Galen Rowell shot slide film with punchy sun scenes.

Aha - sorry I didn't read the middle post of you first !
Sunrise - Sunset - your experience is right (many stops changed within relative short time)!

I would prefer c41 films to that shots because you have more options for the best result you prefer:
How it has to look from your intention!
But of course you can do it also with slides ! But you will need more films (extensive exposure series).
The colors are extreme variing between minimal exposure differences.
I shot Sunset in Vancoover Island with much luck! (2 - 3 Kodachrome25 films in series of 1/3 stops).
And just "a half" of the films I didn't like. The rest is looking real great. (>45 shots).

But like Poisson Du Jour refrered : You should decide what the main interist of your shots are.
For me (at Vancouver) it wasn't the cloudy colored sky - it was the color of some extreme nice looking cloud formation AND the tankers laying bejond the bay.

After just 18 min. the colors of all were looking uninteristing/banal.
But to this short time before it was extraordinary to 3 full 135-36 films.

with regards

PS : In addition a projected slide of such sceene (right exposure[AS intended because with sunrise sunset there isn't a real "right" exposure]) isn't to be shown better (no print can do this best job)!
 

trendland

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A correctly exposed slide will look exactly like the original scene, whether it was bright sun or heavy overcast. I've shot thousands of slides. Many thru an OM-4T, which has one of the most sophisticated metering systems of any camera, but others with 70 year old folders and a 70 year old selenium meter. Every one of them has come out perfect unless I just screwed something up. Stop second guessing and trust your meter.

That being said, Velvia 100 is a horrible film. So contrasty and dark that it's pretty useless for real world scenes. Velvia 50 is much better, but still contrasty. Provia has a tremendous range and is very user friendly. I've only shot a couple rolls of the new Ektachrome, but it looks very accommodating too.
Hart to say how a sceene in landcape looks exactly (from behind)!
But with portrait/fashion/technic I would agree with you.
There You have a reference of true colors (Velvia100 is a bit strange for this - right).....
But landscape - specially "Sunset" is allways an interpretation.:wink:


with regards
 

Wallendo

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I expose for the appearance of the slide when viewed directly so that they will look good when projected.

Modifying exposure to try to capture all the detail so that it can be extracted later makes little sense to me since there are C-41 films that do a much better job of capturing a range of light intensities.
 

Chan Tran

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I use the slides only for projection so I expose them to get the best projected images.
 
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rayonline_nz

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I avoid sunrise and sunsets because of the extreme contrast that Velvia 50 (particularly) is not able to satisfactorily handle, and I don't waste time trying to get a leg over it.

What are you using, and how?

Sekonic 758 Cine with the spot meter. It has a ruler display scale that shows me the stops difference between the 2 metered values. I meter the foreground and the the sky but away from the sun. This time my Nikon F100 in manual mode (for testing) but usually one of my medium formats.

Hazy day / the opposite side of the sunset with Velvia is a walk in the park by comparison. What I found is maybe do'able remotely is to to get to close the foreground that is abundantly lit by the sun, wait for that narrow 8min window once the dynamic range gets within 3 stops difference, quickly slam in a ND grad (!).
 
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Sekonic 758 Cine with the spot meter. It has a ruler display scale that shows me the stops difference between the 2 metered values. I meter the foreground and the the sky but away from the sun. This time my Nikon F100 in manual mode (for testing) but usually one of my medium formats.

The L-758D is what I have used for10 years now, without fault or fuss. But the same difficulties will be experienced with this meter when there are two extremes of competing contrast -- you can have one or the other, but there will be a casualty. It all goes back to being picky having the rigth film at the right time in the right light.

And now I must journey forward for another day of printing!
 

Sirius Glass

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Kia ora, Welly—

If your slides show blown highlights or blocked, dense shadows (right to the point of zero detail), they are, in plain-speak, incorrectly exposed (in terms of specific bias, the exposure is often too long to record detail in highlights) and this very often occurs when the film is exposed in conditions it was not designed for e.g. beside the uniqueness of Kodachrome, which often looked "OK" in bright sunlight, modern day E6 films are a different and altogether-testy beast to poke: they can look just awful in bright point light (a fault I see far too often — the message about exposure just does not get through), and they certainly did not print well to the Ilfochrome Classic print process when exposed in a cavalier, careless way. Conversely, take any of them out in hazy to overcast light and modulate exposure and you will have both correct highlights and shadow detail — in essence, the slides will be beautiful to gaze at on the lightbox.

Exposure must also account for the end use of the slides; projection-only use is not the same as e.g. print-only use. Exposure for each is unique to deliver the best results.

+1,000

Slides do not have the exposure latitude to be played with. One must expose for slide using and print as able to. [thus ending not one but two sentences with prepositions.]
 

ic-racer

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A) A very low scene SBR (Scene Brightness Level) allows transparency film to have considerable exposure latitude to use. (FACT)
B) For Cibachrome printing, highlight detail was very important. The analogy is shadow detail in B&W negatives. (Observation from making hundreds of prints)
C) Transperancies that made excellent Cibachrome prints may project darker than those exposed with the intention of projection. (Observation from making thousands of exposures)
 

Ko.Fe.

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It is old habit. Back then, the only film I was using was ORWO slide film. It was convenient. Expose, pay for developing, bulb it to see.
Now it is nothing but film.
 
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