Sizing

Salute,

Can anyone tell me how to size art paper for printing on, specifically Carbon printing, is there a difference between sizing on paper for printing on Carbon, Gum, Pt, etc.?

Many thanks,
Curt

Curt said:

Salute,

Can anyone tell me how to size art paper for printing on, specifically Carbon printing, is there a difference between sizing on paper for printing on Carbon, Gum, Pt, etc.?

Many thanks,
Curt

Click to expand...

Curt,

There is a difference between the size used for Carbon, Gum, and Pt.

Typically for non Carbon transfers (Gum, Pt) a 3% gum solution is used with a hardener.

Though I'm not a seasoned Carbon printer I think many people use an 8% solution for Carbon.

I'm sure Phil Schwartz will chime in when he sees your messages, he is a seasoned carbon printer.

Don

Don Bryant said:

Curt,

There is a difference between the size used for Carbon, Gum, and Pt.

Typically for non Carbon transfers (Gum, Pt) a 3% gum solution is used with a hardener.

Though I'm not a seasoned Carbon printer I think many people use an 8% solution for Carbon.

I'm sure Phil Schwartz will chime in when he sees your messages, he is a seasoned carbon printer.

Don

Click to expand...

Curt also asked about sizing on the Advanced Process and Carbon Board so we've got it covered there. I think Sandy uses 7% or 8% when he sizes with gelatin. I use 5% and apply using a paint pad for a matte finish, or pour a thicker coat using a rod the same way I pour tissue for a luster finish.

Sandy King is asking for submissions to the Advanced Process because there are so many different methods and procedures that the novice would quickly get confused. So send him your favorite technique for sizing and he will compile a list and post it under links on the AP forum.

As was pointed out I asked several groups of people about the subject, something I've not been noted for doing.

In the process I've been degraded as lazy for not doing a search or research for myself and will cease to ask questions so that the web sites can be clean of repeated "beginner" questions and inquires.

As a cautionary tale, don't post unless you expect to be criticised and taken to task for what you say or imply. All the respectfulness and thank you salutations seem to be lost on the anonymity of the users.

Curt

Sizing it up

http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/paper/the-sizing-survey-the-results


Lots of information there - may create more questions than answers

Curt said:

Sandy King is asking for submissions to the Advanced Process because there are so many different methods and procedures that the novice would quickly get confused. So send him your favorite technique for sizing and he will compile a list and post it under links on the AP forum.

As was pointed out I asked several groups of people about the subject, something I've not been noted for doing.

In the process I've been degraded as lazy for not doing a search or research for myself and will cease to ask questions so that the web sites can be clean of repeated "beginner" questions and inquires.

As a cautionary tale, don't post unless you expect to be criticised and taken to task for what you say or imply. All the respectfulness and thank you salutations seem to be lost on the anonymity of the users.

Curt

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Is this the same Curt I met at Vaughn' workshop in Oregon a couple months ago?

In any event, I'm interested in the same topic and following the threads on both boards.

Everyone sizes differently, especially with idiosyncratic processes like carbon. I don't believe I've ever seen two printers who do it the same way. Be prepared to experiment a little.

Incidentally, there is already a good document floating around the B&S site with many different methods of sizing well written out and explained.
http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/576-the-sizing-paper-and-where-were-at-now/page__p__4040__hl__sizing__fromsearch__1&#entry4040

That was the #3 hit in a keyword search for sizing over there at B&S's forum. Please don't take the suggestion to use the archives personally, it's a great resource and it's not at all overwhelming. Better drink it up fast before Dick accidentally deletes it again! hehe.

Colin Graham said:

Everyone sizes differently, especially with idiosyncratic processes like carbon. I don't believe I've ever seen two printers who do it the same way. Be prepared to experiment a little.

Incidentally, there is already a good document floating around the B&S site with many different methods of sizing well written out and explained.
http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/576-the-sizing-paper-and-where-were-at-now/page__p__4040__hl__sizing__fromsearch__1&#entry4040

That was the #3 hit in a keyword search for sizing over there at B&S's forum. Please don't take the suggestion to use the archives personally, it's a great resource and it's not at all overwhelming. Better drink it up fast before Dick accidentally deletes it again! hehe.

Click to expand...

Just FYI -- I think that doc is now part of Dick's downloadable carbon manual.
I have also modified my sizing technique a bit. No significant departures, but in the interest of full disclosure I will repost and provide Sandy a copy, too.
Basically, I have three sizing workflows:
- light gelatin. Apply with a paint pad. Retains matte finish, no relief.
- heavy gelatin. Poured like tissue. Provides a luster finish.
- Golden acrylics. Apply with a paint pad. Minimal sheen to full gloss.
Relief varies depending on GAC product used. This is the easiest way
to get relief on watercolor paper.

Colin Graham said:

Everyone sizes differently, especially with idiosyncratic processes like carbon. I don't believe I've ever seen two printers who do it the same way. Be prepared to experiment a little.

Click to expand...

Very true, there are several different ways to size a paper for carbon and I have used several of these methods myself. But generally speaking sizing for carbon transfer is different from what we do for gum as the sizing must be quite a bit thicker.

Ultimately the exact method we use is determined by 1) the kind of look we want, and 2) the paper we use. As Phil pointed out if we want a matte/sheen look to our prints we should size with a gelatin solution of no more than 5%, and not a lot of solution. For a more glossy/shiny look size with stronger gelatin solutions (7% or so) and use a lot of solution. I generally favor the second path and size paper in much the same way I coat tissue, using a 7% solution and enough of it to coat the paper to a wet height of about 0.4mm.

One thing I should stress. Hardeners like formalin do not do their job in a day or two. Rather, the size will will continue to harden for up to two or three months, and the longer you wait the safer it is to use the paper for carbon transfer. I am working right now with some paper that I sized last summer and my success rate is about 97% in terms of no frilling. Last summer when I used the paper after a week my success rate was much lower, 70%-80%. This was for fairly large prints of 12X17" or 12X18" and success rate for smaller prints would be much higher.

Also, if you size with formalin be sure to put the paper outside for 12-18 hours after it dries to allow the formalin fumes to leave the paper. If you store the paper without doing this it may cause spontaneous insolubility of the gelatin of your exposed tissue. I say this from experience, not theory.

In papers I have had very good success with Fabriano Artistico, Canson Carvel and Lanaquarelle but each has a different look that you have to see for yourself to appreciate.

I am currently putting together a paper on the methods of sizing used by different people for carbon transfer that I will place in the Files section of the carbon forum that I moderate on Yahoo.

Sandy

sanking said:

One thing I should stress. Hardeners like formalin do not do their job in a day or two. Rather, the size will will continue to harden for up to two or three months, and the longer you wait the safer it is to use the paper for carbon transfer.

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That's also my experience, so I date all the sheets when they are sized. Right now I am using Artistico heavily sized and hardened with 3% Formalin in May 2010 and am getting perfect transfers. Acrylic polymer sizing also seems to provide more reliable transfers if it's allowed to cure for at least a few days.
I should add that if I find I need to use newly sheets, I run them through a heated mounting press to artificially speed up the aging. Gelatin-sized sheets can get a few minutes; watch out for polymer sizing, it will melt.