Sizing Papers Possible Stupid Questions

I am going to purchase some arrowroot powder/starch for sizing some uncoated papers It says to boil water and let starch clear in vessel.
As I have never done this before here goes.

How long does the mixed solution last in plastic containers?
Can I reuse and reuse the liquid?
How long do you soak the paper?
Is there a preferred temp?
How do I know when the stuff is exhausted?

I also would like to know if anyone gelatin coats finished print for protection after printing?
If so could you explain the proceedure.

I am going to try all of the above but some insight would be helpful.

Bob,

Have you tried gelatin, or is there a specific reason you want to use arrowroot starch?

I haven't used ARS, but use gelatin all the time for gum prints. It's no big deal, just takes some time and a bit of experience to learn the best way to get it right.

Every time you heat the solution, it will break down some of the crosslinking potential, which means it will become less effective as a size. I can't tell you how many times you can do it, as I only use gelatin and only in a single-shot mode with a brush, rather than in a large quantity for dipping.

As for finish print coats, I don't use gelatin, but I do use liquitex for that. It's not organic, so it is less likely to mold or attract bugs than gelatin. Cut it with water and soak the print for a few minutes. Pull it out and hang to dry.


---Michael

Michael
I am a newbie to this specific application so not sure yet what my materials and methods will be. I believe there are a lot of people on this site that I can suck info from their brains.
The specific reason for arrowroot starch is my business partner took a course with John Cone a couple of years back and he recommended arrowroot for sizing.
I want to make arches platine more receptive to the inks in my epson and this is the specific reason for arrowroot.* I want to do multiple passes in register and I think sizing will be required*
The gelatin is just a wacky idea I have about protecting the print after the ink has set on the paper.
I would then float mount these prints in box mounts.
These tests are for me to get some hands on experience with different materials and as well to try some different methods and make a few mistakes on the way.

This fall I want to try some multiple coat exposures on paper* I plan to make cmyk separation films off the Lambda using Ilford FP4 in large rolls.Hand process the large film in trays and register them for printing.
I would like to use platinum for the K film, and try some B&S colour carbon tissues as well try colour gum for the colour elements.

I purchased a 30x40 flip top plate burner for this purpose and am now looking for a strosser punch system for large films.
I am thinking dipping will be better for my purposes as I intend to work with large sheets of paper in the long term.

michael mutmansky said:

Bob,

Have you tried gelatin, or is there a specific reason you want to use arrowroot starch?

I haven't used ARS, but use gelatin all the time for gum prints. It's no big deal, just takes some time and a bit of experience to learn the best way to get it right.

Every time you heat the solution, it will break down some of the crosslinking potential, which means it will become less effective as a size. I can't tell you how many times you can do it, as I only use gelatin and only in a single-shot mode with a brush, rather than in a large quantity for dipping.

As for finish print coats, I don't use gelatin, but I do use liquitex for that. It's not organic, so it is less likely to mold or attract bugs than gelatin. Cut it with water and soak the print for a few minutes. Pull it out and hang to dry.


---Michael

Click to expand...

Bob,

I believe Platine is unsuitable for multiple process printing, because it has a bit of a shrinkage problem. It doesn't shrink consistently in both directions, and apparently preshrinking may not help solver the problem. Should work fine in the printer, though, but I haven't tried it. ARS may work great for what you are thinking.

Sizing won't solve the shrinkage problem. It will help keep gum/carbon from staining the paper fibers, thus permitting a 'paper white' to occur on prints where they are desired.

At the sizes you are discussing, even the most suitable paper will probably need to be pre-shrunk. Maybe even twice. Humidity control in the paper is a problem that you need to pay attention to as well.

This is all a part of what most gum printers do, so anyone who does them (like me) can go through the process with you effectively.


---Michael

Micheal
thanks for your response and I will appreciate any and all help you can give me.
The Arches Platine is specifically for the inkjets as you have pointed out.
I certainly will post my findings/faults/mistakes.
Our clients want the fancy decel edge to verify they are artists and though I do like the look of this paper with inkjet I think sizing will allow me to adhere more ink on the paper.
Regarding the multiple printing with gum or carbon I am not sure what route I will go, A friend of mine in town prints multiple carbon onto a mylar type substance in reverse and then transfers the whole package to paper in one application and it works well for him.
He does full colour reproduction work that is quite stunning, Sandy King and Mark Nelson held a workshop here and I brought my friend in to show his work over an lunch period.
I am not convinced that I will go the full colour route but maybe just selective colours to accent a scene much like the hand colouring processes . Where you get the idea of colour, but it is not full realism.Therefore a robust paper will be needed but I am not sure I will be hitting it with four emergences in fluid.
I will certainly keep in touch as I start working with the larger films and papers.
I have moved my plate burners into the main darkroom and am installing a heavy duty AR and Humidity control system before I go forward .
Sandy will appreciate it the next time he comes to Toronto , as the last time humidity held them back.
BTW what is ARS paper?

michael mutmansky said:

Bob,

I believe Platine is unsuitable for multiple process printing, because it has a bit of a shrinkage problem. It doesn't shrink consistently in both directions, and apparently preshrinking may not help solver the problem. Should work fine in the printer, though, but I haven't tried it. ARS may work great for what you are thinking.

Sizing won't solve the shrinkage problem. It will help keep gum/carbon from staining the paper fibers, thus permitting a 'paper white' to occur on prints where they are desired.

At the sizes you are discussing, even the most suitable paper will probably need to be pre-shrunk. Maybe even twice. Humidity control in the paper is a problem that you need to pay attention to as well.

This is all a part of what most gum printers do, so anyone who does them (like me) can go through the process with you effectively.


---Michael

Click to expand...

ARS = arrowroot starch

For consistent large wet prints, I recommend mounting the print to stainless steel or formica before starting on the printing (preshrink and acidify if required first). Then, the paper dimensions should remain mostly constant through the entire process. Don't use aluminum if you're going to do a metals based layer for the black. If you do it right, you won't even need a registration pin system.

If you use reversible mounting tissue, you can then remove the print and remount it on another larger piece of paper to make the final print.

Have you tried a product like this:

http://www.danielsmith.com/products~sku~754+010+002.asp

I haven't looked into this at all because I prefer my inkjet prints to be more like a silver gelatin print, but this is probably a decent place to start in some trials. My guess is that it has a carrier in a PVA substrate.


---Michael

A couple more things...

In my experience, Platine can be very inconsistent on the internal size (I think it's internally sized). It's apparent when processing it in chemicals for pt/pd. That could cause you blotchyness problems, even if you get another coating to work. Or, it could be of no impact. But be aware that it might be a source of some problems that will require overcoming.

Have you looked at Buxton? It may have all the characteristics needed for good digital printing from the start. I haven't tried it, and I don't have time to do so before I leave for the scanning workshop in ABQ, but it could work well.


---Michael

Micheal Sorry about the ARS thing, the title of the thread should apply to me.
I used a stable black smooth melemex product *came in rolls EM Plastics* with registration work in the 80's . I have axcess to that as well as a cold laminator for mounting with acid free adhesive.
I never thought of mounting the paper to a stable substrate that could handle mutiple wettings.Makes a lot of sense.
With a high pin strosser registration system the melemex could be easily punched so that multiple films could be used for multiple hit printing.
I will look into the link you provided.
Bob

michael mutmansky said:

ARS = arrowroot starch

For consistent large wet prints, I recommend mounting the print to stainless steel or formica before starting on the printing (preshrink and acidify if required first). Then, the paper dimensions should remain mostly constant through the entire process. Don't use aluminum if you're going to do a metals based layer for the black. If you do it right, you won't even need a registration pin system.

If you use reversible mounting tissue, you can then remove the print and remount it on another larger piece of paper to make the final print.

Have you tried a product like this:

http://www.danielsmith.com/products~sku~754+010+002.asp

I haven't looked into this at all because I prefer my inkjet prints to be more like a silver gelatin print, but this is probably a decent place to start in some trials. My guess is that it has a carrier in a PVA substrate.


---Michael

Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

Never tried this product, but saw it listed in another forum, and saved the link. Could be helpful for using art papers with pigment inks.

LINK

I'm actually reading up some more on sizing at the moment. I have a few ideas I'd like to test with Kallitypes.

There was a good link about some elements of sizing on the LF photography site here, LINK.

I sent Ed a few questions about his experiences, and he replied the other day. If you would like that additional info, PM me, and I can send it.

Hope this helps some.

-Martin

Well first results seem hopeful

We sized the paper in ARS and it did allow for a more vibrant /colourful representation of the image we were testing.
Luckily we have a mural room with huge trays and large drying racks right beside the epson room.
Bit of a pain as we also had to press the paper flat to fit in the machine.

I will do more testing in the future and will try to scan and post the before and after images.

Has anyone tried multiple flashing and multiple printing on an Epson?
We occasionally give a slight flash of lets say skin tone ink *very light * . Set up a canvas that is slightly bigger than the image to print and do a double pass, One coat is just the flash colour and the other is the image, really works well with portraits.
*M Blansky are you reading this.* allows for very delicate skin tone with rich contrast for the surrounding image.
I know one would say you can do this in PS but really works well on the print.
Also try this technique with cross processed images. JD Callow are your reading this* Allows you to really punch up the dominant colours but flash in complimentary fill colours into a contrasty scene*
Both techniques I use in traditional printing and will totally work on a Epson.
I want to mount pins on my machine so that the paper is starting at the same position each time and start . layering on accent colours or blacks to strenthen the print. Is this being done by others?
I think with sizing and a good pin system this is very possible.
BTW anyone have a large Strosser Pin System they want to sell?
Martin and Micheal thanks for the links I will look into them and post my results.
Bob

Hi Bob,

I am unsure if you are still attending the forum, as it has been 15 years since your initial post. I wanted to seek your counsel in respect of the arrowroot starch sizing methodology.
If you still use or remember what worked for you in relation to mixing with water and any procedures before it can be applied to the paper. Also, did it work for Arches Platine?

Thanks in advance

Pawel

Hi Pawell, welcome aboard.

I'm interested in arrowroot sizing as well, so have quoted Bob to make sure he sees your question. (He'll get a little red flag 'alert' that someone has quoted him).

Murray

.

PawelL said:

Hi Bob,

I am unsure if you are still attending the forum, as it has been 15 years since your initial post. I wanted to seek your counsel in respect of the arrowroot starch sizing methodology.
If you still use or remember what worked for you in relation to mixing with water and any procedures before it can be applied to the paper. Also, did it work for Arches Platine?

Thanks in advance

Pawel

Click to expand...

Bob Carnie said:

I am going to purchase some arrowroot powder/starch for sizing some uncoated papers It says to boil water and let starch clear in vessel.
As I have never done this before here goes.

How long does the mixed solution last in plastic containers?
Can I reuse and reuse the liquid?
How long do you soak the paper?
Is there a preferred temp?
How do I know when the stuff is exhausted?

I also would like to know if anyone gelatin coats finished print for protection after printing?
If so could you explain the proceedure.

I am going to try all of the above but some insight would be helpful.

Click to expand...

PawelL said:

I am unsure if you are still attending the forum

Click to expand...

Bob posts here now and then, but is a little more active on the Large Format Photography Forum in my experience. He's always been a great help to just about anybody, so hopefully he will chime in! Or otherwise perhaps anyone else with experience with arrowroot sizing can share their experiences. I'd be interested to read about this as well.

PawelL said:

Hi Bob,

I am unsure if you are still attending the forum, as it has been 15 years since your initial post. I wanted to seek your counsel in respect of the arrowroot starch sizing methodology.
If you still use or remember what worked for you in relation to mixing with water and any procedures before it can be applied to the paper. Also, did it work for Arches Platine?

Thanks in advance

Pawel

Click to expand...