Sinar Norma 4x5 and Nikkor-W 135mm - beginner considerations

[jcn]

I have finally made the decision to get started in LF. I have been shooting 35mm and MF for some 4 years now, developing and enlarging my own film (and by that I mean I manage to make an image appear on paper, no Ansel Adams here...)

I came across a relatively affordable Sinar Norma 4x5 with a Nikkor-W 135mm lens - there are cheaper cameras on the market but, after doing a bit of reading on LF cameras, this seemed to be a good reliable camera. I don't plan to do much travelling on foot with it, so the weight/bulk should not be an issue.
Not sure about the lens - anyone has any experience with a similar one?


Being my first step into LF, I was wondering if you would be kind enough to share your experience with me - tips and tricks, the obvious and the less obvious considerations for a beginner, and the things you wish you had known when you started out?
Also any suggestions for good resources and books?

For example, I will be developing film in a Paterson tank with a MOD54 reel. Any suggestions around that? Is it the kind of system that will work in the long run, or should I look at different options in the future?

Film-wise, I would like to ask for your opinions. I expect there to be some wastage at first until I get to grips with the camera, so I am not jumping into E6 or C41 film. Any B&W film you recommend that does not break the bank? I was thinking of either Ilford Delta 100 or HP5 Plus 400.

I will be doing mostly landscape photography and perhaps some portraiture. I got the impression that the 135mm that comes with the camera would be a good all-round lens, but I am happy to be corrected on that.

Many thanks!

 

[Sharktooth]

The 135mm focal length is a nice general purpose lens, and the Nikkor-W version should have enough covering area for some movements.

The Sinar Norma is a very nice camera if it's in good working condition, but keep in mind that these are very old cameras now. MIake sure you check the bellows for light leaks, especially in the corner folds. Extend the bellows, and remove the back and lens. In a dark room use a small flashlight inside the bellows to see if you can see light shining through to the outside. Bellows wear with age and use, and it's not unusual to find many pinholes in older bellows, even when they may look fine from casual inspection. It s better to find this out now, before you start wasting a lot of film and wondering what's causing these random dark areas in your negatives.

 

[John Koehrer]

Like sharktooth says.
The nice thing about clean used large format is you can recoup most if not all
of your money if it doesn't work for you.
In addition, test the lens/shutter as best you can. No fungus and speeds shouldn't hang up and
oil on shutter blade. Glass should be clean and have no surface scratches but minor cleaning
marks won't have a visible effect.

 

[abruzzi]

The Norma is a great camera, but as Sharktooth mentioned, it can be pretty old, so make sure it all works. Replacement bellows can be had cheap, so I wouldn't get hung up on the condition of the bellows, but all the other doo-dads. If you're going to try to be mobile with the camera, I've found it folds up easier with the tapered bellows rather than the square bellows.

For film, I's start with a box of Foma in your favorite speed. Then your shot cost will be about a $1 per shot (or presumably less than 1 UKP) That ways screwups are cheap.

The Nikor W lenses are great lenses. a 135mm is a moderate wide angle, so if thats your thing, great! (I tend more to moderate teles, so 180mm or even 210 is preferred for me.)

EDIT: also, makes sure the rail it comes with is one is a proper base rail (black plastic tip or tips) and does it come with any extensions? A 12inch base rail will probably be fine for anything you're likely to do with a 135, but I regularly use a 6inch extension as well.

 

[jcn]

Hi all, thanks for the quick replies! Really helpful tips, thank you!

I will check the bellows when it arrives - it was described as in good working condition, so I would expect light-tight bellows. If they have a few pinholes here and there, does that mean a new set of bellows or is it the kind of thing that can be fixed, e.g. with some electrical tape?
I will definitely test the shutter and check the lens - it was sold as in good condition, clean optics, and shutter functioning correctly on all speeds.
It comes with only the base rail (with 2 black tips) - am I likely to need an extension? In what circumstances would I be likely to need it, would that be for close up subjects?

For the film, I see all these different kinds of film holders for sale - Fidelity, Lisco, Riteway, MPP, Toyo... They all look very similar - are they all a universal design and interchangeable?

 

[abruzzi]

a base rail is 12 inches or ~300mm. For the 135, that is more than enough for most purposes. The longer your lens gets, the less that will be sufficient. I'm not sure the total lenght of the bellows, but adding a 6 inch extension get me pretty close to the max extension on the tapered bellows, so that would be in the ballpark of 450mm total extension. Anything beyond that and you'll need special bellows, or two sets of bellows and a middle standard to join them. If you're going to get longer lenses, I'd add the 6in extention as well. Longer than that is only useful for really long lenses or macro and that requires a fair bit to make it all work. For now you're fine.

If the bellows have pinholes, I wouldn't use electrical tape--it doesn't stick terrible well, and leaves a lot of adhesive residue. Book-binding tape is usually better. Some people like liquid electrical tape (basically some black goo), but my issues it it never seems to actually dry for me, so when the bellows have been sitting compressed for a bit, the corners stick together next you try to open it. Good used bellows are cheap, so if they arrive with pinholes, look for a quick and dirty solution to last a month or two, while you buy a new set. Mine came with square bellows, and I wanted the tapered (it seems to fold up better with the tapered bellows), so I bought a set from a japanese seller on eBay, and it was like $65 USD with shipping.

The outside and film depth for 4x5 film holders is unversal, with a few caveats. If you see single sided holders (more common in Europe than here in the US, not sure about the UK) they almost certaily don't fit. Also remember that there were film holders for metric sized film. They had the same outside size, the inside they were adapted to a different sized film. For 4x5, the related metric size was (I believe) 9x12cm. They'll fit a 4x5 camera, but they won't fit 4x5 film, you'll need 9x12 film, so avoid them, unless you want to shoot 9x12. Most of my film holders are Fidelity or Lisco. They're similar enough that I suspect they may have been made in the same factory. There are also some cheap new 4x5 holder on eBay. There was some small discussion on LFF, with some people complaining about the quality, so--caveat emptor.

 

[jcn]

Thanks!

Yes, I got the impression that they all looked VERY similar... I am going to need some anyway, so I might as well buy one of each - I shall report back if I find any to be of dodgy quality! I will stay away from single-side and 9x12 holders.
And thanks for the tips on the bellows - bookbinding tape sounds like a good alternative, I didn't even think of that!

And thanks for the tips on the MOD54 - I'll have to look at it when it arrives, I'll probably sacrifice a sheet to get some practice before doing it for real. And yes, I'll stick with B&W for now, I am more interested in the flexibility it offers rather than colour film - although I am very curious to see how a colour transparency would look like in 4x5! But at the current prices of 4x5 slide film, I won't be going near it until I am confident with the camera.

Do you enlarge or scan your negatives? My enlarger will only take up to 6x6 and my scanner is a V600, so it won't take 4x5 film. I'm thinking of scanning it in halves and then photoshopping it together, does anyone have experience of doing that, and does it work out well?

 

[DREW WILEY]

The Norma is my favorite Sinar camera series. But you can interchange components from the later versions too if you need to, including bellows. The original Norma tapered bellows is especially nice if it's still in good condition.
These cameras are designed to be easily tuned-up from time to time. You'll need a few small slotted screwdrivers and tiny metric allen wrenches. Download a repair manual first. Should be an easy search.

I'm in my mid-70's and still routinely day hike with a Norma kit in a real backpack. They're not that heavy if you think things out and learn to use things like ordinary bubble packing instead of heavy thick official camera pack sponge rubber.

4x5 enlargers are common and affordable used here, maybe not in the UK. I don't know. Seems a pity to have a nice 4x5 film camera and not be able to directly print in a real darkroom. FP4 is an excellent beginner film. Sheet film is a lot easier to develop evenly in trays in a darkroom sink than in inversion tanks. But whatever. Takes some practice either way.

135 is a nice focal length to own. It's slightly wide angle. For portraiture and landscapes it would also be nice to have something on the longer side, like 210mm. But start with what you have and get used to looking at things from that perspective and upside-down. No need to even shoot film to begin doing that.

Remember, you can also use 6x7 and 6x9 roll film backs on these cameras too. I like the Horseman brand. For that application, your 135 will be a slightly longish focal length. It will be different than your previous MF experience because you'll have full perspective and plane of focus movements.

 

[jcn]

Thank you all for your replies!
darr - I'm not much of a digital wizard, so I will probably try and use the V600 to scan the 4x5 in halves and then photoshop it together - I think it might be simpler than using a digital camera and then edit everything in post. But I'll experiment a bit and see how that goes.
Drew - 4x5 enlargers are not super uncommon here in the UK, but surely not as common as 35mm or MF. They are not prohibitively expensive (£700-£1200, so roughly 850-1500 USD), but more than what I can afford at such an early stage... But I'll try and find a local darkroom with a 4x5 enlarger so I can give it a go. And thanks for the tip on the tray development - I'll give that a go as well!