Silvergrain article on HC110

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2008

Ray is correct, Ryuji gets a royalty on his products just as Bill Troop and I get one from the Formulary on Liquidol.

His information is not on Wikipedia though, but rather on a private site not associated with Wikipedia. I believe the reference is silvergrain.org/wiki

PE

Ray Rogers · Apr 5, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Ray;

Good to hear from you. Thanks for chiming in.

PE

It is nice to be back!

I see you have been busy!

More than 7000 posts!

When do you ever have time to breathe?!!

Ray

Ray Rogers · Apr 5, 2008

Ron, you are correct he has a wiki site;
but I am right that he has an infomercial on wikipedia.

It is still there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_developer

Go to the site yourself or just keep reading!

This is an informecial:

Recently, practical methods to improve the stability of ascorbate developers have been worked out by Ryuji Suzuki. Some of his formulae are published on his website [1]], and the latest formulae are available in ready-to-use products from Digitaltruth Photo ([2]).

Peter De Smidt · Apr 5, 2008

Hi Ray, I must've mis-remembered what Ryuji said about remuneration from the old Pure Silver list. That said, to characterize the wiki page sited as an infomercial is a little extreme. Of course he's convinced that his developers offer some advantages, or he wouldn't have developed or commercialized them. But the line you sited is one small element on an informative page. No one in their right mind would think that he's making a lot of money off of this, just as no-one would say the same thing about Bill Troop or Ron. Let's grant for the sake of argument that Ryuji has behaved rudely to some of us. It doesn't follow that it's ok for us to do the same thing to him.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2008

Peter;

I agree and I think that we should stop this right here! It is best for everyone.

Ron

Peter De Smidt · Apr 5, 2008

Agreed!

srs5694 · Apr 5, 2008

I see that somebody has recently (today) made some small edits, which blunt the "infomercialness" of the passage in question. They seem like fair edits to me. Of course, this being Wikipedia we're discussing, further edits are almost guaranteed to occur at some point.

Alex Hawley · Apr 5, 2008

Ray Rogers said:
-- he has an infomercial on wikipedia.

And that's where the professional line gets crossed. If the article was characterized as an infomercial, I doubt that this discussion would have been started. With the "encyclopedia" context, it is taken by the unknowing reader as unbiased fact.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2008

srs5694 said:
I see that somebody has recently (today) made some small edits, which blunt the "infomercialness" of the passage in question. They seem like fair edits to me. Of course, this being Wikipedia we're discussing, further edits are almost guaranteed to occur at some point.

I just looked at the history of that section and someone edited out a 'blatant ad......" nearly a year ago . So, it has been out and back in at least once before.

PE

tim_walls · Apr 5, 2008

Hmm. Some very basic research on the IP address of the person adding the 'infomercials' to Wikipedia suggests that the person making the edits hails from the area of Somerville (near Cambridge I believe), Massachusetts.

Equally basic research suggests that Ryuji Suzuki hails from the same broad area.

It would not take a wild leap of imagination to suggest that the infomercials might not be the work of an adoring fan...

CBG · Apr 5, 2008

CRhymer said:
...Or, perhaps you have out-drôled me...

No such luck. I take things all too literally and missed the point.

Happy drolling and developing.

C

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2008

tim_walls said:
Hmm. Some very basic research on the IP address of the person adding the 'infomercials' to Wikipedia suggests that the person making the edits hails from the area of Somerville (near Cambridge I believe), Massachusetts.

Equally basic research suggests that Ryuji Suzuki hails from the same broad area.

It would not take a wild leap of imagination to suggest that the infomercials might not be the work of an adoring fan...

Or, maybe it is an adoring fan, who added them.

PE

RobC · Apr 5, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Or, maybe it is an adoring fan, who added them.

PE

More likely a narcissist...

gainer · Apr 6, 2008

tim_walls said:
Hmm. Some very basic research on the IP address of the person adding the 'infomercials' to Wikipedia suggests that the person making the edits hails from the area of Somerville (near Cambridge I believe), Massachusetts.

Equally basic research suggests that Ryuji Suzuki hails from the same broad area.

It would not take a wild leap of imagination to suggest that the infomercials might not be the work of an adoring fan...

A little farther leap would disclose that MIT also resides there.

It was through Ryuji that I learned about "The Theory of the Photographic Process". Before then I had had Lee and Perrin's Principles of Optics and a translation from Russian of the Russian translation from English of a number of papers on photography, which books happened to be in the NACA library at Langley Research Center. Ryuji, out of the goodness of his heart, sent me by snail mail photo copies of several pertinent chapters.

Yes, he can be prickly. He may know more about conversing with certain sea creatures than he does about conversing with so-called humans.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2008

Lee and Perrin's also makes a very good sauce. Ever hear of it Patrick?

PE

Ray Rogers · Apr 6, 2008

Peter De Smidt said:
...to characterize the wiki page sited as an infomercial is a little extreme... the line you sited is one small element on an informative page.

Let's grant for the sake of argument that Ryuji has behaved rudely to some of us.

It doesn't follow that it's ok for us to do the same thing to him.

Hi Peter.

I totally appreciate your stance on this topic;
It is a small truth that I do not want to treat him the way he has treated myself and others. I sought out his frienship prior to his involvment with emulsion making, prior to his website and prior to his commercial products.

It would be nice if he would consider me a friend, rather than a cockroach.

With the exception of his interpersonal skills and discorse style, I respect his stated dedication to science, and above all, his passion for truth;

You feel that "...to characterize the wiki page... as an infomercial is a little extreme..." and note that "...the line... is one small element on an informative page."

Peter, actually I am only inditing the aflicted section, not the entire page.
I think I said "this" is an infomercial, not "this page".

Wikipedia has a clear policy against the use of infomercial on their site.

The fact that a small commercial has been inserted into a large body of otherwise nuetral information, does not neutralize the fact that a commercial was inserted into a large body of information.

Someone has traced the edits and someone has made changes to the site today.
I read here too that there were changes made before as well...
It wasn't me.
I hand the baton to someone else; I have no axe in my hand and I wish no one harm.

Unfortunately, the truth is not always pleasent.

Ray

Ray Rogers · Apr 6, 2008

gainer said:
A little farther leap would disclose that MIT also resides there.

It was through Ryuji that I learned about "The Theory of the Photographic Process".... out of the goodness of his heart, sent me by snail mail photo copies of several pertinent chapters.

YES.
He is very kind in this way.

Ray

Jordan.K · Apr 6, 2008

So I don't get it.......... does HC110 (which I currently use) cause some type of ill effect on negatives over time or something, like eat away at them?

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2008

Jordke said:
So I don't get it.......... does HC110 (which I currently use) cause some type of ill effect on negatives over time or something, like eat away at them?

Wherever did this idea come from?

No, it does not!

PE

Jordan.K · Apr 6, 2008

Beats me Ron.............. I get a little cuckoo.

gainer · Apr 6, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Lee and Perrin's also makes a very good sauce. Ever hear of it Patrick?

PE

I should have looked at my copy. It is Hardy and Perrin, of course.

gainer · Apr 6, 2008

P.S.
Maybe it was wishful thinking. It's been a long time since I have eaten anything worth putting Lee & Perrin on. Or maybe I just don't remember that event either. I guess I really am up to my tail in my 81st year.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2008

Patrick;

My uncle, who got me into photography is 87 and he is going strong! Stop fretting and get some fish (lovely brain food) and put on some Lee and Perrin. I spotted that right off and wanted to gently twit you. No offence was meant.

PE

sanking · Apr 6, 2008

Am I to assume from this discussion that Ryuji and Silvergrain have a connection?

Sorry, but I feel terribly uninformed and out of the loop in reading through the comments. I have had some dealings with Ryuji, all pleasant I might add. But I don't know much about Ryuji except that he seems very bright, and appears to like red wine, as I do.

Sandy King

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2008

Ryuji, Silvergrain and Digital Truth are all linked together in one way or another. Silvergrain is Ryuji's web site and Digital Truth sells his products. I think that all of the earlier posts express things well.

PE

Silvergrain article on HC110

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