Sick camera or touching negatives

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

I have a nice Pentax MX that had been overly expensively serviced two years ago. It has an issue with cold weather (the curtain sticks) but now I have something new! I have just started developing in steel tanks and I want to rule out film touching on the spool. Does this look like a camera fault or have I not loaded the spool properly. I did the backwards and forwards trick to make sure the film was free. The camera is well into negative equity but it is too nice to drop in a skip. Any advice would be gratefully received

Bill Burk · Mar 24, 2023

I don’t see crinkled edges on the film, usually when it jumps the track you’re going to put a little kink in it.

Did you hear a crinkle when you spooled? Or was it silky like winding a Leica the whole way on?

(One vote for shutter)

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

Bill Burk said:
I don’t see crinkled edges on the film, usually when it jumps the track you’re going to put a little kink in it.

Did you hear a crinkle when you spooled? Or was it silky like winding a Leica the whole way on?

(One vote for shutter)

Lovely and smooth. There was no evidence of kinks when it came off the spool too. I just wanted to rule out my lack of experience before I consign the MX to the not trusted pile

As for Leica comparisons, I don't currently own one, but if anyone has a spare they would like me to look after for a while.......

madNbad · Mar 24, 2023

A little trick, I learned here, is when loading a stainless steel reel is while you are loading, push the film back a little bit and if the reel is loading correctly you should feel a bit of movement. In your case, it looks like the shutter is the culprit.

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

madNbad said:
A little trick, I learned here, is when loading a stainless steel reel is while you are loading, push the film back a little bit and if the reel is loading correctly you should feel a bit of movement. In your case, it looks like the shutter is the culprit.

Yeah, I learned that here too. I love this forum prior to using the tank I spent days practicing loading spools. I am fairly confident it wasn't me .....fairly confident

martinola · Mar 24, 2023

I'd think that with touching film in the tank, you'd see more delineated edges. I'd guess that it was more likely that the fist and second curtains were catching up with each other momentarily. It might be worth a call to the previous repairer. Good luck.

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

martinola said:
I'd think that with touching film in the tank, you'd see more delineated edges. I'd guess that it was more likely that the fist and second curtains were catching up with each other momentarily. It might be worth a call to the previous repairer. Good luck.

Thanks. I have a different one I trust more and who doesn't charge a fortune, meaning I may be able to afford the repair. that's the gamble using 40yo cameras

Bill Burk · Mar 24, 2023

Cerebum said:
Lovely and smooth. There was no evidence of kinks when it came off the spool too. I just wanted to rule out my lack of experience before I consign the MX to the not trusted pile

As for Leica comparisons, I don't currently own one, but if anyone has a spare they would like me to look after for a while.......

Eli Griggs knows where you can get a Leica for five dollars.

Is it possible something got in front of you like a strap or branch? The shape seems a bit irregular to be shutter curtain.

Or a railing!

ic-racer · Mar 24, 2023

serviced two years ago.

Consider that a horizontal, cloth, focal plane shutter can easily go bad in 2 years. Also consider these shutters can usually be repaired multiple times.

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

Bill Burk said:
Eli Griggs knows where you can get a Leica for five dollars.

Is it possible something got in front of you like a strap or branch? The shape seems a bit irregular to be shutter curtain.

Or a railing!

They would have to be portable lol its on about ten frames. My camera repair wizard just got back to me and he thinks its blind tension. I just hope its a cheap fix

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

ic-racer said:
Consider that a horizontal, cloth, focal plane shutter can easily go bad in 2 years. Also consider these shutters can usually be repaired multiple times.

Thanks I just hope its a reasonably cheap fix

randyB · Mar 24, 2023

The fact that some frames show image density at each end of the frame and a large diffuse area of no image in the center with non-sharp/straight edge edges to the diffuse area makes me think it is a developing problem.

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

randyB said:
The fact that some frames show image density at each end of the frame and a large diffuse area of no image in the center with non-sharp/straight edge edges to the diffuse area makes me think it is a developing problem.

Interesting. This illustrates that so many different factors play a part. Half of the images came out very nicely. Its odd. I would have thought a curtain issue would affect all the shots, but then I don't have much experience

albada · Mar 24, 2023

I'll hazard the guess that the shutter has two flaws: (1) the shutter is capping, and (2) the 2nd (closing) curtain is bouncing, exposing a strip along the edge.
What shutter speed were you using?

Mark

Cerebum · Mar 24, 2023

albada said:
I'll hazard the guess that the shutter has two flaws: (1) the shutter is capping, and (2) the 2nd (closing) curtain is bouncing, exposing a strip along the edge.
What shutter speed were you using?

Mark

1/250-1/500

albada · Mar 24, 2023

Cerebum said:
1/250-1/500

My MX caps at 1/1000, but not at 1/500.
Have you checked the camera for capping at 500 and 1000? While looking at the back of the shutter while facing a bright area, you can watch for capping while holding the camera both horizontally and in the vertical orientation that you often use. I noticed that 3 of the 4 faulty shots on your negs were when held vertically.

Mark

Niglyn · Mar 25, 2023

Cerebum said:
1/250-1/500

Yep, this explanation seems likely. First curtain is slow, so second curtain catches up to the first, thus blanking the middle portion with it & then bounces open at the end of travel, thus exposing a small strip at the end.

You could build yourself a shutter tester, which would highlight these problems & also (new version) will also detect shutter bounce.

See my thread on building a shutter tester, has all the info and links to parts required.

MTGseattle · Mar 25, 2023

I think you all are on the right track. IMHO that looks like way too "clean" a defect to be a processing error. No odd swirls or hard lines from film touching itself, no traces of residue, etc. I'm sure there are use cases out there where this doesn't happen, but film touching on the reel almost always gets stuck together in one stage of the process, so another stage gets effectively skipped.

Cerebum · Mar 25, 2023

albada said:
My MX caps at 1/1000, but not at 1/500.
Have you checked the camera for capping at 500 and 1000? While looking at the back of the shutter while facing a bright area, you can watch for capping while holding the camera both horizontally and in the vertical orientation that you often use. I noticed that 3 of the 4 faulty shots on your negs were when held vertically.

Mark

How do I check for capping? (What's capping BTW )

Cerebum · Mar 25, 2023

Niglyn said:
Yep, this explanation seems likely. First curtain is slow, so second curtain catches up to the first, thus blanking the middle portion with it & then bounces open at the end of travel, thus exposing a small strip at the end.

You could build yourself a shutter tester, which would highlight these problems & also (new version) will also detect shutter bounce.

See my thread on building a shutter tester, has all the info and links to parts required.

Now that sounds interesting. Thanks. I will check it out

Cerebum · Mar 25, 2023

MTGseattle said:
I think you all are on the right track. IMHO that looks like way too "clean" a defect to be a processing error. No odd swirls or hard lines from film touching itself, no traces of residue, etc. I'm sure there are use cases out there where this doesn't happen, but film touching on the reel almost always gets stuck together in one stage of the process, so another stage gets effectively skipped.

Thanks. I am relieved that it wasn't my technique, even though it will cost money

albada · Mar 25, 2023

Cerebum said:
How do I check for capping? (What's capping BTW )

The shutter has two curtains, and they move right-to-left in tandem, creating an open slit that travels along the negative. If the second curtain is moving faster than the first, the slit gets smaller as it moves, and closes completely partway across, leaving blank negative there. That is called "capping" because the slit has capped closed.

Check for capping as follows: Set the shutter speed to 1000. Remove the lens and open the back. Point the camera at something large and bright. Repeatedly fire the shutter while looking at the curtains. You should see the entire frame blink. If it's capping, you'll see the blink fade to black at the left end. Also try a speed of 500, holding the camera both horizontally and vertically.

If the second curtain bounces, you'll see a vertical blink at the left end after it faded from capping. In general, if a shutter is *not* capping, bounce will create a brighter strip at the left end -- that might be hard to see. But capping and cap-and-bounce are easy to see.

Mark

Cerebum · Mar 25, 2023

albada said:
The shutter has two curtains, and they move right-to-left in tandem, creating an open slit that travels along the negative. If the second curtain is moving faster than the first, the slit gets smaller as it moves, and closes completely partway across, leaving blank negative there. That is called "capping" because the slit has capped closed.

Check for capping as follows: Set the shutter speed to 1000. Remove the lens and open the back. Point the camera at something large and bright. Repeatedly fire the shutter while looking at the curtains. You should see the entire frame blink. If it's capping, you'll see the blink fade to black at the left end. Also try a speed of 500, holding the camera both horizontally and vertically.

If the second curtain bounces, you'll see a vertical blink at the left end after it faded from capping. In general, if a shutter is *not* capping, bounce will create a brighter strip at the left end -- that might be hard to see. But capping and cap-and-bounce are easy to see.

Mark

Brilliant. Thank you so much for the detail. I will test it tomorrow then let my camera wizard know

Huss · Mar 26, 2023

Before you do anything, shoot another roll and have a commercial lab develop it.
If you see the same issue, it is the camera. If you don’t, it’s you.

Cerebum · Mar 26, 2023

albada said:
The shutter has two curtains, and they move right-to-left in tandem, creating an open slit that travels along the negative. If the second curtain is moving faster than the first, the slit gets smaller as it moves, and closes completely partway across, leaving blank negative there. That is called "capping" because the slit has capped closed.

Check for capping as follows: Set the shutter speed to 1000. Remove the lens and open the back. Point the camera at something large and bright. Repeatedly fire the shutter while looking at the curtains. You should see the entire frame blink. If it's capping, you'll see the blink fade to black at the left end. Also try a speed of 500, holding the camera both horizontally and vertically.

If the second curtain bounces, you'll see a vertical blink at the left end after it faded from capping. In general, if a shutter is *not* capping, bounce will create a brighter strip at the left end -- that might be hard to see. But capping and cap-and-bounce are easy to see.

Mark

Its capping very badly at 1/1000 and fairly badly at 1/500. I didn't see anything at 1/250. Thanks for this and indeed all the help. I can now tell my camera repair guy so he can give me a price.

Sick camera or touching negatives

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