Showing your work, slide projection and why you photograph in the first place

Alan Edward Klein said:

Don, why not take the better ones, enlarge them, frame them, and give them as a gift when you visit relatives or friends? I'm sure they'd appreciate it and their thank yous will make you feel better, more human. Make someone happy.

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Why would you think I'd need to take better ones to do that?

Anyway, I take part in the postcard exchange here and the blind print exchange. All of my family members get prints - more than they know what to do with. They also all get a calendar every year with family photos from the previous year.

None of that puts a dent in thousands of 8x10 prints I have.

Alan Edward Klein said:

There is no point in hiding your work in a closet. See my last post.

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A friend of mine has the habit of needing to brag about how he runs the marathon, or how he single-handedly has steered another company into a more profitable direction, or how he has taken possession of the latest generation Tesla car/smartwatch/split unit airconditioner/etc. I always sit through these episodes patiently until we can talk about meaningful things. Fortunately, once he gets it out of his system, there's virtually always a moment where we reconnect on a personal level and all the riffraff falls away.

As for me, and 'hiding my work': I don't try to jump 10 feet up into the air, because there's no point to it. Many things are pointless. I find showing my 'work' to others pointless.

There are reasons I can very well imagine why people show their photos. I used to do this in the past. These can include being sensitive to being patted on the back, or perhaps expecting others to say things that somehow encourage them to become better photographers. There may be economic reasons. Or reasons related to pride. I've considered those, and decided they don't work for me. I've never made a better, or worse, photograph because someone said something nice or critical about one of my photos. I find begging for pats on the back more fitting for lap dogs, so I choose to abstain from this. I do not suffer from the delusion that my photos would command a price that justifies the effort put into making them, so I don't sell them.

Privately, I think that the vast majority of amateur photographers showing their work do so because of ego-related motivations. I find those a poor motivator, myself, but would not judge others for having the same motivations. As the saying goes: "whatever floats your boat". However, I do feel that at least some amateur photographers display their work just because they believe it's somehow expected from them, because they feel pressured into doing so by their peers and/or because they simply haven't worked out yet that the reasons they think they have for showing their work, do not really apply to them when scritinized more closely. In short, for some, it may be nothing more than a reflex, a knee-jerk response.

Hiding my photos in the closet, costs absolutely no effort whatsoever, and does not involve burdening others with what I spend my pastime on. It has rid me from motivations that are not really motivations at all, and allows me to focus on the reasons why I do photograph and print. Those reasons happen to have very little to do with others, with the exception of isolated 'incidents'. These mostly revolve around very utilitarian motives, where someone needs an image for purely practical reasons and the most efficient solution is that I supply them with these images. For me, these instances have little to do with photography as a hobby, though. Having shaken off the burden of seeking approval from others etc. I find very liberating. I don't have to worry about a photograph being considered pretty, novel, well-executed, sufficiently similar or dissimilar to the work of a well-known artist, socially engaged, politically correct, tasteful, involving the correct materials as expected by my peers, correctly exposed or even composed, etc.

Very simply put, I can make whatever the heck I want and it's nobody's business what that is or how it comes out. That's why I hide my photos in a closet. There's very much point in doing exactly that.

Don_ih said:

Anyway, I take part in the postcard exchange here

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So do I, or at least I've done so a few times now. I find it great fun receiving those cards from across the planet. It's worth the sacrifice of having to send out mine, which frankly is not my favorite part (which has absolutely nothing to do with the recipients or how I feel about them). I enjoy making them, though.

koraks said:

The questions are: why photograph and/or print, and why show it to others (or not)?

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That, when one really thinks about it, is a highly personal question, perhaps one that requires more introspection than is comfortable and is too revealing if answered honestly.

In order to put together an answer, I thought about it not just in the context of photography but along with all my other hobbies, interests, and passions and why I engage in them and whether I “show” or share their output with others. I’ve definitely come across some parallels and, the reasons for each have changed over time.

Regardless of the activity, I think back to what attracted me in the first place and it varies. For photography, it was the “magic” of what takes place in the darkroom that I saw when, in the very early 70s, I accompanied a friend and watch him makes some prints. That spurred me to acquire equipment, read some books, and start learning about photographers. When I saw images (in books) of Adams, Weston, Cunningham, etc. I wanted to “do what they do” and tried to emulate their style both in subject matter and technique. At the time, I was serving in the army, mostly overseas, and I had little else to devote my “free time” to other than this and I let it consume me.

When I became a civilian I needed a job and sort of fell into one at a medium-sized color photofinishing lab, working my way through most of the positions until I was the quality control guy. This place was a horrible place to work, the pay was extremely low, but it was a graveyard shift, which I preferred, and it scratched my photo-technical itch. In the meantime, I pursued my own photography, becoming more experimental and abstract, never showing my work except to a few friends. I also never entertained the thought of, outside this temporary foray in photofinishing, pursuing photography as anything other than a hobby as my career aspirations lay elsewhere.

Over the years since, the passion has ebbed and flowed in competition with my other interests but got back fully back on track after I retired 11 years ago and decided to pursue a BFA, primarily to change and improve my drawing abilities. This opened my eyes to the world of art and changed the way I think about my own work in not just drawing, but photography and painting as well. Anticipating korak’s question as to what that change was, I tend to think more thematically about work I want to do rather than on individual imagery. Instead of looking for images that will make a nice print on their own, I look images that fit into a theme or issue that I’ve assigned myself. I usually have quite a few of these in my head at one time.

That’s a long winded answer to korak’s first question and hardly required much introspection, but to answer the second part, why to show work to others (or not), does have me dig a bit deeper. As I mentioned, I never used to show my work but having gone through “art school” I had to do so and became comfortable with it. A parallel that helps me understand is my playing musical instruments (I do piano, guitar, and uke), something I’ve done since I was 7 but NEVER do so front of others. The reasons include fear of rejection, the belief that I’m not “good enough,” and carrying around a bit of “imposter syndrome.” It was the same with my photography and my drawings. Getting over that with my visual arts now gives me the clue that I might try it next with music. I will fully admit that there is an ego boost when my photography/drawings are put up in a show and I see people enjoy them, but I try to keep my hat size the same.

As an aside, I have a solo show of drawings that runs all summer at the nearby university gallery. The theme is ”Abandonment” and it started with a photograph. I was never happy with the image even though I shot and reshot it several times and just decided to draw it instead. While doing so I went with that theme and created 6 more drawings, all using my photographs from over 40 years as references. That first drawing/photo I posted in the gallery here last November.

Thank you once more, @VinceInMT, for your thorough answer. I can relate to many of those things you say, and although life takes all of us on different paths, there are some parallels. In particular, I recognize what you say about thinking more thematically, which also presses the point of the meaning behind the image or series. I think that's a fascinating question, both the closed one (does there have to be a story to begin with?) and the open one (if so, what should it be?)

I also recognize the parallel in music, which is an apt one. My experience has been different in one respect - I have been up there on a stage. Individually, and later (and far more comfortably) as a member of an ensemble. That's all distant past now and I guess to whatever extent that itch had to be scratched, it has been scratched until it bled alright - and eventually healed over alright. Don't get me wrong. It was all small-town amateur level. I decided early on at around age 13 or perhaps even younger that I had neither the motivation for 4-8 hours of daily practice nor the ambition to become a professional musician, so I did not take that path. I find now that whenever I stumble my way across Bach's second violin partita, which of course is far too difficult for me, it can be a deeply emotional and rewarding experience to just reproduce that degree of sheer genius, and for a little while and in a very modest way, become part of it. No audience is needed for that experience, and in fact, it would be counterproductive.

One of the reasons I enjoy showing my work is that I have friends who have work as well, and we enjoy sharing our work together.
If you just show your work, but don't engage with those you show it to, it is a significantly different experience than if you both show work to each other.

VinceInMT said:

I was lost with the Shark Tank reference, of course, I am always lost when people reference anything from TV, movies, sports, or royalty, but I intend to stay lost.

8mm filmfests, like their 16mm cousins, are great. I have a relative who got into 8mm (super) and thought he’d make a killing as a wedding guy at the same time Beta/VHS hit the market. He hardly ever used it and then passed away. His widow gave it all to me. It’s an Elmo camera, projector, and editor with some accessories. Fun stuff.

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Shark Tank is a waste of time television show, that just watching it not only shortens ones life, but one cannot get back the minutes wasted on watching it.

MattKing said:

One of the reasons I enjoy showing my work is that I have friends who have work as well, and we enjoy sharing our work together.
If you just show your work, but don't engage with those you show it to, it is a significantly different experience than if you both show work to each other.

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Yes, you can learn from each other and get a boost from others to try harder and experiment. Also, what good is potential art that's locked up in a closet? You're depriving others of a moment of enjoyment and lift as well as a lift to yourself. Trying to deny your humanity is a dead end street. It won't work. We're not angels or saints. Additionally, hiding your work can be egotistical in itself. Look, I'm better than you because I don't need others to compliment me. That can be false modesty and false humility.

Like it's been suggested by others, the middle ground is often the best path.

Sirius Glass said:

Shark Tank is a waste of time television show, that just watching it not only shortens ones life, but one cannot get back the minutes wasted on watching it.

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One can say the same thing about forums.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Trying to deny your humanity is a dead end street.

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Certainly so. Which is why I'd like to emphasize this:

VinceInMT said:

That, when one really thinks about it, is a highly personal question, perhaps one that requires more introspection than is comfortable and is too revealing if answered honestly.

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It's quite tricky to ignore that and raise one's own standards to what's universally human. This is also one reason why I picked on some of your posts so far @Alan Edward Klein - because in their formulation, there's the implied suggestion that the way you see it is universal. For instance, the 'why not show your work' comment is a non-reason that effectively conveys the message that there's no conceivable reason for not showing one's work. In other words, any (very human) considerations to not show one's work that do not fit your personal view are, or should be, nonexistent. I find this a very odd and restricted way of viewing this.

Alan Edward Klein said:

what good is potential art that's locked up in a closet?

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What good do the photographs of an amateur photographer need to be? Where is it written that they should be produced and made available for the enjoyment of humanity at large? Is it not enough that they serve only the photographer themself, and as such contribute to society, through that one person?

But apparently there's a different question that you're trying to answer - one I did not ask, but could have, if not for the fact that I personally don't see much benefit in exploring that direction: why do you believe that someone else should show their work? I find this an irrelevant question because of what @VinceInMT said, which I very vehemently agree with: that it's a personal matter.

Alan Edward Klein said:

One can say the same thing about forums.

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Sean isn't holding a gun to your head, is he?

koraks said:

Certainly so. Which is why I'd like to emphasize this:



It's quite tricky to ignore that and raise one's own standards to what's universally human. This is also one reason why I picked on some of your posts so far @Alan Edward Klein - because in their formulation, there's the implied suggestion that the way you see it is universal. For instance, the 'why not show your work' comment is a non-reason that effectively conveys the message that there's no conceivable reason for not showing one's work. In other words, any (very human) considerations to not show one's work that do not fit your personal view are, or should be, nonexistent. I find this a very odd and restricted way of viewing this.



What good do the photographs of an amateur photographer need to be? Where is it written that they should be produced and made available for the enjoyment of humanity at large? Is it not enough that they serve only the photographer themself, and as such contribute to society, through that one person?

But apparently there's a different question that you're trying to answer - one I did not ask, but could have, if not for the fact that I personally don't see much benefit in exploring that direction: why do you believe that someone else should show their work? I find this an irrelevant question because of what @VinceInMT said, which I very vehemently agree with: that it's a personal matter.



Sean isn't holding a gun to your head, is he?

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There are some here who complain that showing photos is bragging and negative. I was trying to explain the humanity in it and that it is just as acceptable as not showing your work if that's what you choose. Also, considering this is a photo forum, one would expect contributors to show their pictures. If this was a poetry forum, I would expect contributors to post some of their poems.

Separate from critique or ego type posts, one should post pictures when you're trying to support a particular process they're a proponent of. Seeing samples is important in these situations, I believe.

I think everyone wants to feel they are making a difference in the universe, that our lives count, that we contribute something to humanity. That we just don't eat, procreate and die.

Which reminds me of the story about the young man who was captured by an enemy army when his land was attacked by them. They dragged him back to their country and chained him to a huge wheel. They sentenced him to twenty years during which he had to turn this wheel 16 hours a day. There was a shaft on the wheel that turned and was run through to the other side of a wall. But he could not see what it was doing. He wondered that maybe it turned wheat into grain or moved water to irrigate the field on a far side. When the twenty years were up and they removed his chains, he ran to the other side of the wall to see what his work accomplished. He was devastated. The shaft was not connected to anything.

Even as a prisoner, we need to feel we have purpose.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Even as a prisoner, we need to feel we have purpose.

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But, IMO, not everything we do has to fulfill some purpose. I've not considered my photography as contributing to some higher goal in support of humanity, nor do I think that way when looking at the other artistic endeavors I pursue. And why should I? I have checked that box in other areas of my life such as when I answered a "calling," left my career in industrial design and construction, and became a high school teacher with the purpose of having a positive impact on the lives of young people. I made more of a difference in the 20-plus years I spent doing that than my art ever will.

Alan Edward Klein said:

I was trying to explain the humanity in it and that it is just as acceptable as not showing your work if that's what you choose.

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Thank you, that's all I ask.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Also, considering this is a photo forum, one would expect contributors to show their pictures.

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I disagree. The forum is geared towards exchanging technical knowledge first and foremost. The gallery, which is a separate part of the website, offers the opportunity to share images. I find it significant to note that they are only loosely integrated. I will always continue to agitate against any implied expectation that people share their photos here. There's an implied invitation to share your photos. That's very different to an expectation.

Alan Edward Klein said:

I think everyone wants to feel they are making a difference in the universe, that our lives count, that we contribute something to humanity.

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Well, most people, and the emphasis is on want. The question is how far we are willing to go in deluding ourselves in this respect, or (more interestingly, in my view) how willing we are to accept that perhaps there is no purpose to it all. This realization is not half as frightening as it may seem once you get used to it. But I guess not everyone wants to allow that possibility.

VinceInMT said:

But, IMO, not everything we do has to fulfill some purpose. I've not considered my photography as contributing to some higher goal in support of humanity, nor do I think that way when looking at the other artistic endeavors I pursue. And why should I? I have checked that box in other areas of my life such as when I answered a "calling," left my career in industrial design and construction, and became a high school teacher with the purpose of having a positive impact on the lives of young people. I made more of a difference in the 20-plus years I spent doing that than my art ever will.

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Why would you spend thousands of dollars and years in art school just to lock up your work in the attic? Sure, it might not be as important as having children or caring for a sick relative. But it's part of us, has meaning, and should be shared.

koraks said:

Thank you, that's all I ask.



I disagree. The forum is geared towards exchanging technical knowledge first and foremost. The gallery, which is a separate part of the website, offers the opportunity to share images. I find it significant to note that they are only loosely integrated. I will always continue to agitate against any implied expectation that people share their photos here. There's an implied invitation to share your photos. That's very different to an expectation.



Well, most people, and the emphasis is on want. The question is how far we are willing to go in deluding ourselves in this respect, or (more interestingly, in my view) how willing we are to accept that perhaps there is no purpose to it all. This realization is not half as frightening as it may seem once you get used to it. But I guess not everyone wants to allow that possibility.

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You mean we're all like that prisoner?

Alan Edward Klein said:

You mean we're all like that prisoner?

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That's my firm conviction, yes. But perhaps that avenue is a bit too far off-topic.

Alan, for a lot of people the act of making art (or, in this instance, of taking photos, art or not) is what is fulfilling a desire - far more than sharing that art with other people. It's a meaningful activity in itself and doesn't need any outside justification or validation.
Obviously, that's not true for everyone. But it is true for a large number of people.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Why would you spend thousands of dollars and years in art school just to lock up your work in the attic? Sure, it might not be as important as having children or caring for a sick relative. But it's part of us, has meaning, and should be shared.

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I share plenty in lots of other areas of my life but, until more recently, I didn’t feel compelled to share my photography or drawings. I still don’t feel a necessity to do so but I do share, some. I have stacks of sketchbooks filled with drawings. Am I somehow depriving humanity because I don’t share their contents? I write, a lot. Am I supposed to share all of what I write including my personal journal?

BTW, “art school” wasn’t expensive. As a Vietnam Era veteran, the state of Montana waived my tuition.

Think of how many now-famous photographers were largely unknown in their own time, and then someone made a discovery up in some cobwebby attic long afterwards? But, instead of thumbing through a box of interesting old prints, what if it had been a box of CD's or thumb drives instead? Unless the label on the box stated, Secret Swiss Bank Accounts, the whole thing probably would have been just tossed out.

VinceInMT said:

I share plenty in lots of other areas of my life but, until more recently, I didn’t feel compelled to share my photography or drawings. I still don’t feel a necessity to do so but I do share, some. I have stacks of sketchbooks filled with drawings. Am I somehow depriving humanity because I don’t share their contents? I write, a lot. Am I supposed to share all of what I write including my personal journal?

BTW, “art school” wasn’t expensive. As a Vietnam Era veteran, the state of Montana waived my tuition.

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You have posted photos here. Why? Why did you feel compelled recently?

koraks said:

That's my firm conviction, yes. But perhaps that avenue is a bit too far off-topic.

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So not only are our pictures worthless but we are too? No point to any of it. Sounds very depressing.

Don_ih said:

Alan, for a lot of people the act of making art (or, in this instance, of taking photos, art or not) is what is fulfilling a desire - far more than sharing that art with other people. It's a meaningful activity in itself and doesn't need any outside justification or validation.
Obviously, that's not true for everyone. But it is true for a large number of people.

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Who takes pictures with their cellphones and shows no one? Who takes pictures of their family and shows no one, hides pictures of their kids in their house when people visit? Do you have any photos displayed in your home of anything or anybody? If you do, why do you do it?

Alan Edward Klein said:

Who takes pictures with their cellphones and shows no one? Who takes pictures of their family and shows no one, hides pictures of their kids in their house when people visit? Do you have any photos displayed in your home of anything or anybody? If you do, why do you do it?

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I take lots of pictures I don't show anyone. But that's actually irrelevant. What I was talking about was the activity of making art, and how personal that is for many people, and how many people never bother to show anyone the end result - and, for a lot of those people, it is the act of making the art that is important. Once it's finished, the artist is done with it - the fun is over.

It's not just photography. It's every artistic activity. Some people feel the need to do it yet don't feel any need to put it out in the world. Just go revisit some of what @VinceInMT had to say, above.

It's potentially all of the above. But for me personally, the "hunt" - the experience itself - is often more important and rewarding than the "kill".

Alan Edward Klein said:

One can say the same thing about forums.

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Not the ones I participate in because I supply useful information and avoid politics. Your case may well be quite different.