Should the Monthly Shooting Assignment Accept Digital Photos?

Don_ih · Nov 1, 2023

Originally, the MSA only accepted film-originated photos that were exposed and developed (and scanned, printed, etc) during the month of the assignment. However, due to a lack of participation, that requirement was relaxed and people are now allowed to post photos from their archives that fit the assignment theme, as well as any they take during the current month.

There has been some interest from people shooting digital that they be allowed to participate in the activity.

This poll is specifically for people who have taken part in the assignment (in the past or currently) as well as any people who may want to take part in it in the future (whether they shoot film or digital). The comments are not for digital vs. film arguments but are for reason why the MSA either should or should not stay exclusively film-based.

Ivo Stunga · Nov 1, 2023

I actually would love to see a clear 1:1 comparison that would arise from this and wouldn't mind this if it was clearly pointed out.

It could even be a separate category.

calphotography · Nov 1, 2023

Hello! What is the consensus on a scanned negative that is digitally manipulated? Would this fall into digital? I would like to start participating in the MSA. I do shoot both digital and film but would probably just submit printed film photos. Where is the new theme announced for November?

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 1, 2023

calphotography said:
Hello! What is the consensus on a scanned negative that is digitally manipulated? Would this fall into digital? I would like to start participating in the MSA. I do shoot both digital and film but would probably just submit printed film photos. Where is the new theme announced for November?

Here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/monthly-shooting-assignment.40/
But you would have to wait for the Oct. MSA winner to announce the theme for November...

And to address your question, I personally do not have a problem with scanning in film, and doing your adjustments on a computer. I would like it if the photograph started on a piece of film, though...

Bob Giles · Nov 1, 2023

A digital camera limit of 50 photos. A film camera, same number of photos. Let both film and digital users participate with this limit.
A fair and equal way for both.

calphotography · Nov 1, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/monthly-shooting-assignment.40/
But you would have to wait for the Oct. MSA winner to announce the theme for November...

And to address your question, I personally do not have a problem with scanning in film, and doing your adjustments on a computer. I would like it if the photograph started on a piece of film, though...

Thanks Andrew

Sirius Glass · Nov 1, 2023

There could be one for film and one for digital.

logan2z · Nov 1, 2023

Although I only shoot film, I don't really understand the rationale for restricting the MSA to film-based photos. I thought the images were supposed to be judged on their artistic merit, independently of the technology used to capture them. It seems the current film-only rule is an historical leftover from when Photrio was APUG and may not be relevant any longer.

ic-racer · Nov 1, 2023

Phototrio could be Digital, Computer Graphics and AI generated art...

...but it isn't.

MattKing · Nov 1, 2023

logan2z said:
Although I only shoot film, I don't really understand the rationale for restricting the MSA to film-based photos. I thought the images were supposed to be judged on their artistic merit, independently of the technology used to capture them. It seems the current film-only rule is an historical leftover from when Photrio was APUG and may not be relevant any longer.

It is also related to the fact that one element of the challenge is the time limitation - it used to require that the photo was taken, developed and made available for sharing all within a single month.
Then the time period was extended.
Then older images began to be accepted.
It can be changed if people want it changed.
But the restrictions and limitations are part of its charm.
In case you haven't a sense of how much history it has, here is the list of themes to date:

For those who follow, and for those who are tasked with choosing a new theme, here is a list of all of the MSA themes used so far - updated to the date in the thread title: - 2023 - O/N Leaves O/N Macro O/N Creatures O/N Pairs O/N Humor (aka Humour) O/N Night Light O/N Pillars - Columns O/N Water O/N Words and Symbols O/N Fences/Borders - 2022 - O/N Iron O/N Windows O/N Shadows O/N New Topographics photography O/N Photos inspired by Literature O/N Negative Space O/N Wabi-Sabi O/N Trees O/N "Panorama" O/N "Heritage" O/N "Your Favorite Things" (2.0) - 2021 - O/N "Holiday Season" "Mornings" "Family Heirloom" "Changing Season" - 2020 - "Record Album Cover Art" "Interior" "Streetlife" "Altered Reality" "Beauty/soul/fun/mood/? of technology" 'Heimat / Homeland''

- 2019 - "Narrative photography - tell a story in a single frame" "On the Way" "Nature" "Beginnings" "Genius loci" "Beautiness/Beauty" - 2018 - "Celebrations" "Transit" "Chrome" "Public Art" "One's Trash is Another's Treasure" “Rhythms” - 2017 - "Gentle Low Slow Light .." "Polyptych" "Pareidolia" "Experiment!" "Healing" "LISTEN TO..." - 2016 - “SUNDAYS” “YOUR FAVORITE THINGS” "Your Own World" "April Showers Bring May Flowers" "Follow The Path" "Traces of People exposed" - 2015 - "Flying through the Sky" “In Motion - People or Things” "Suggest" “Geometry” "How to catch a light beam" "Stone" "H20 Isolation"

- 2014 - "Two" "Public Spaces" “Near and Far” “SALT” “Cheap camera challenge!” - 2013 - "Transport" “High Noon” “The Color of Night” “Round and Round” "B&W Nudes & Bodyscapes" "Unusual Shapes" - 2012 - "SUNRISES" “Holidays” "Angles and Curves" "Between Sharp and Unsharp" "Weekend!" “WARM!” - 2011 - "inspiration" "Inside Out/Outside In" "Hats" "Markets" “Light and Shadow” "Body decorations"

- 2010 - “Festive” "Objects Discarded" "Feet" “Faces” “Blessings” “Brilliant” - 2009 - “The End” “Reflections and Mirroring” “Signage” “Water” “Why you like where you live” "Contrasts" - 2008 - “An Image of the profession” "Movement" "Skylines" "Deterioration: something man has left behind." "On the Road" "Two People Doing Something" - 2007 - "Portals" “Of great importance to your life” “Leisure Activities” "mealtime" "Working Horses" “Parallels (incl. Transportation)” - 2006 - “Face + Laughing Face” "work" “your favorite chair”

Don_ih · Nov 1, 2023

calphotography said:
What is the consensus on a scanned negative that is digitally manipulated?

I personally don't think there's any difference between a digitally manipulated scan and a "straight" scan of a negative and, for that matter, a darkroom print. It just isn't something that matters to me - it's your image so make what you want of it. I'd consider that film-based.

logan2z said:
I don't really understand the rationale for restricting the MSA to film-based photos

The rationale is as Matt stated but, at this point, it doesn't matter as much as the fact that the rule has been established and we should decide if it should be changed. Your argument states a reason to allow any photo, which seems fine by me.

MattKing · Nov 1, 2023

calphotography said:
What is the consensus on a scanned negative that is digitally manipulated?

More specifically, the guidelines: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...5-07-2019-07-and-2021-12.126124/#post-2526013

Part of which say:
2(c) For either the NEW Category or the OLD Category, photos must originate as something that is consistent with Photrio's Analogue only section principles - i.e. using traditional (non-digital) processes. Scans from prints, slides, or negatives are permitted, but any digital adjustments should be strictly limited to what would be acceptable in the Photrio analogue only galleries. Please be sure to label which Category (OLD or NEW) your submission belongs in. Film and exposure information plus any special technical information is also good.

Those limitations on digital adjustments are essentially the ones that applied to the former, analog only galleries. Essentially, only those digital versions of the tools and techniques employed normally when making darkroom prints - cropping, contrast adjustment, exposure choice, burning, dodging and, in rare circumstances, assembling of collaged images.

As I've previously posted, if the participating community reach consensus on wanted or needed changes, than that is fine. Some will want to participate more, while others will want to participate less.

I personally would be more keen on adding another MSA like activity, than making radical changes to the existing one.
But I'm just one of many interested parties ....

BrianShaw · Nov 2, 2023

I, personally, think a photograph is a photograph yet multiple MSAs seems the most expedient, if not the most rational, approach to this concern. Someone just needs to start one in the D and/or H bucket…

Daniela · Nov 2, 2023

I shoot for MSAs every month, but I don't always get to develop and print in time to submit. I find it really motivating as an assignment either way, and I'm thankful to be able to submit old pictures for the times when I can't submit new.

I think there's a lot of value in the slowness of the analog process and this is a thread in which there's place for it. I'd prefer if the MSA was kept fully analog as a little safe place de résistance in this whole wide web world . Separate threads for analog and digital submissions would feel most comfortable to me.

Don_ih · Nov 2, 2023

Daniela said:
I'd prefer if the MSA was kept fully analog as a little safe place de résistance in this whole wide web world

I think that's a good reason, but would others contributing digital photos prevent you from continuing to do the assignment as you currently do - namely, with film, developed, printed?

BrianShaw said:
I, personally, think a photograph is a photograph yet multiple MSAs seems the most expedient, if not the most rational, approach to this concern. Someone just needs to start one in the D and/or H bucket…

Well, there is nothing stopping someone from making an all-digital MSA. Really, even if someone did, that doesn't answer the question asked here - which is whether or not this MSA should be inclusive. It's kind of a question of whether or not the people participating would be willing to have that kind of extra participation - and also whether or not people shooting digital would like to participate in it (although I'm not sure how many all-digital people are even seeing this poll). So, "Make another one" is not a solution if digital shooters want to be included in this one. This one is, after all, the original one - it's been going since 2006.

Daniela · Nov 2, 2023

Don_ih said:
I think that's a good reason, but would others contributing digital photos prevent you from continuing to do the assignment as you currently do - namely, with film, developed, printed?

It wouldn't prevent me from doing it...I just think there are a billion places to post digital pictures, can't we keep a little corner just to ourselves?

wiltw · Nov 2, 2023

My personal background includes a 40+ year history of shooting film, and processing/printing both B&W and color; then 20 years of digital. As my favorite emulsions and darkroom materials have become obsolescent over the past 20 years, I have less and less reason to pick up a conventional film camera, and I finally sold off my color darkroom equipment.
Nevertheless, I see strong reason to have a conventional film-based MSA and separately a digital-based MSA, and perhaps even a hybrid MSA. Each poses a different set of challenges in the process of image creation. The concepts...

conventional MSA: image captured on film, photochemically processed (transparency or print), final image then digitally copied for posting (no further digital manipuation of image)
digital MSA:: image captured digitally, post processed digitally, then posted
hybrid MSA: image captured on film, then converted to digital form and modified digitally before posting

The timeframe rules could vary by type of MSA...those that entail use of film allow greater time span for shooting and processing (in view of the disappearing labs doing quality processing, and even the disappearance of home darkrooms)

I shot this image on film, posing a very complex process in the studio...had I tried to capture the same image digitally, the process of image creation would have very different and challenging in a completely different way! So the 'same image' would have entailed totally different skills to presenting an entry for 'competition'. In fact, I am not sure I have the requisite skils to create this same image with a totally digital process!

Kino · Nov 2, 2023

It's getting far too complex; I'll just stick to randomly posting in the General Gallery.

30 years of Federal Government service makes me allergic to red tape...

Don_ih · Nov 2, 2023

Kino said:
allergic to red tape

Well, the question here is actually simple and only has to do with the current MSA. And while it's nice to post in the general gallery, that's not an activity that's being done by a group of members all together the way the MSA is (or the postcard exchange, or the print exchanges). To an extent, if you want to participate in the game, you have to play by the rules.

Whether or not digital is allowed is a fairly straightforward amendment and doesn't constitute complication.

@wiltw - the MSA currently is analog-only and accepts scanned negatives that have received some digital processing. Restricting it more would drastically reduce the number of contributions.

Don_ih · Nov 5, 2023

There are a few days left, but we're at 27 votes with 75% saying the exchange should stay as it is.

I would be interested to know if the people who voted to allow digital would be interested in starting a postcard exchange that allowed digital (or was all-digital). I think there is a significant difference between "go make your own club" and "come join our club".

koraks · Nov 5, 2023

Don_ih said:
I would be interested to know if the people who voted to allow digital would be interested in starting a postcard exchange that allowed digital (or was all-digital).

Yes, I would consider playing.

Rolleiflexible · Nov 5, 2023

I voted to allow digital because it seems like a general exercise, and because Photrio caters to both sides of the divide.

Don_ih · Nov 5, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
I voted to allow digital because it seems like a general exercise, and because Photrio caters to both sides of the divide.

It caters to but also maintains the divide, by way of opting in or out.

koraks said:
Yes, I would consider playing.

I should have said any kind of exchange, not just postcard. Are there any digital exchanges on here? Have there ever been?

4season · Nov 5, 2023

I voted "Yes", with my second choice to just leave things as they are, because dual MSAs sounds like too much bother. But rather than deciding via popular vote, I think it ought to be up to the originator of the MSA to decide whether the level of activity is OK, or not.

MattKing · Nov 5, 2023

4season said:
But rather than deciding via popular vote, I think it ought to be up to the originator of the MSA to decide whether the level of activity is OK, or not.

david b started the first thread that I can easily find in 2006. He hasn't been seen here in over seven years.
I think it has a sort of collective life of its own.

Should the Monthly Shooting Assignment Accept Digital Photos?

Should the Monthly Shooting Assignment accept digital photos?

Yes

No

Don_ih

Ivo Stunga

calphotography

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Bob Giles

calphotography

Sirius Glass

logan2z

ic-racer

MattKing

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Don_ih

MattKing

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BrianShaw

Daniela

Don_ih

Daniela

wiltw

Kino

Don_ih

Don_ih

koraks

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Rolleiflexible

Don_ih

4season

MattKing

Moderator

Should the Monthly Shooting Assignment Accept Digital Photos?

Should the Monthly Shooting Assignment accept digital photos?

Yes

No

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Moderator

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