Should a color darkroom always be without lights?

game said:

Thanks for responses!
I also read in the topic 'outofoptions' hyperlinked that one can use luminous tape to indicate places in the room.
Game

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May be an idea. However, though I was initially oriented to purchase a Durst Sanat (which is the officially suggested lamp for Cibachrome / Ilfochrome Classic by Ilford while we're talking) I found out that a safety lamp is not needed that much.

For most of the tasks, you don't really need your eyes even if you though you would. And when you really need to take a quick glimpse, turning on the enlarger for a while is more than sufficient. The pilot lamps of the head alone will let you walk around safely in most cases.

After all, safety lamps for colour work are so dim that they don't make the difference, if you ask me, and they're painfully expensive.

Kind of my conclusion. Usefull topic I'd say.
But I'll absolutally be using luminious tape.

Game

roy said:

The most used sodium safelight over here is safe providing that it is not too brightly set. (it is adjustable) It is always wise however, to carry out light checks as distance from sensitive materials is often critical.

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I think this safelight must be the DUKA 50 to which this reference is made. I can certainly endorse this. The guy at Nova Darkroom in the U.K. actually prints RA4 in a Nova quad tank with it. I bought one based on this but was still sceptical about it's light output until I tried it as I had a Durst safelight before which was practically useless.

I was amazed. It's good enough to allow me to cut RA4 8x10 sheets down to 2x 4x5 and repack without fogging or none that I or my other viewers can see.

A secondhand one was about £60 ($105) but well worth the cost. You can increase its intensity for B&W and the light output is then very good although if B&W was all I did then there are much cheaper lights with good output.

It has a large face, almost like a small floodlight and I turn it towards the ceiling which bounces the light down for the whole room and hopefully decreases the chances of fogging as well a spreading the light more evenly. I believe there is separate cover for it for B&W but I have managed without such a cover for RC multigrade paper.

Pentaxuser

Dark!

As a photo color lab rat for 20+. I learned that no light in a darkroom is best. We used small bits of glow in the dark tape to find things while working the enlarger and learn where the processor was when we needed to load the paper. You get very good night vision and feel like the "Mole men" from some old 50's movie.
AAAHHHHH!!! Light!

Color paper can be used with the Wratten series #13 safelight with a 15 watt bulb at about 4 feet for up to about 5 minutes. I use 2 in my darkroom directed away from the work area and it is sufficient to work by.

The red lamps from my Jobo processor, digital timer and Enlarger are set to dim, and cause no problem.

These lighting conditions are not good for any form of color film or B&W film.

Infra Red illumination is quite safe for both film and paper, as long as the viewing light (green) that is produced by the phosphor that you view is not allowed to 'leak' around the viewing binoculars. They must fit your eyes tightly enough to prevent any sort of reflection into the room.

PE

I don't use any illumination.

I have the bruised shins to prove it.

We are not mole men and tend to live by light...

Robert8x10 said:

As a photo color lab rat for 20+. I learned that no light in a darkroom is best.

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Why--- beyond blind training?
Recall we are talking about "safe light" and that's determined by it being both safe for the materials at hand AND offering illumination. Darkness might be "safe" for the materials--- and with some training perhaps even the operator--- but is not light but dark.
I argue that the "best" safelight environment (we should never talk about a specific lamp out of context but must address the entire system) is one offering the most comfortable level of illumination. With some materials and lamps this is not possible and so one compromises on illumination to reconcile to the needs of material safety. Here the "optimum" is the highest level of subjective illumination where the materials are completely safe for a max. period of time.
- To determine material safety there are well defined objective tests.
- Max. time can be determined by empirical observation and testing. One should add some "significant" (worst case) headroom to ensure that the time is **never** exceeded, viz. the min. amount of max. time.
If under these conditions the lighting is "safe" then its safe. Using lower levels of lighting to lower levels of comfort to appease anxiety is, at best, a symptom of neurosis.

Ed, Kodak and Fuji used precisely those types of tests to determine the average 'safe' light conditions for their color papers.

The information I gave above about the Wr 13 safelight is a paraphrase out of the Kodak Color Dataguide. The Wr 10 can be used as well, but at a reduced light level due to the increased speed of the more modern papers, which render that older safelight less 'safe'.

PE

game: "Should a color darkroom always be without lights?"

I got a small torch from RH Designs for use with colour printing. It can only be used for short periods but is handy to check where things are in the room. I tested my paper and found I could use the torch for up to 10 seconds at a distance of 2 feet from the paper without fogging. It can be hung around your neck so you always have it to hand. It is very small, light weight and is not expensive.

Peter

Bob F. said:

Colour papers have a sharp dip in their response at around 590nm which allows the use of sodium vapour lamps and suitable LED based safelights. As others have pointed out, you need to test your materials, especially with the sodium lamps as they reportedly drift in colour as they age.

Cheers, Bob.

P.S. Use of a sodium vapour lamp is why I can read my handwritten notes even when using VC B&W paper... their sensitivity does not reach much above 550-560nm - I find the red filter that comes with my Duka unnecessary.

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Bob. I too use a DUKA. Mine is a DUKA 10 that I got secondhand from Nova. You may have seen my replies elsewhere praising its light intensity while still preventing fogging.

Well disaster struck last night. The sodium bulb went. I have only had it a year and used it maybe 150 hours max - probably less. Although it was secondhand, I has assumed( probably naively) that the bulb was near or nearly new. Equally naively, it would now seem, I had assumed that if the whole lamp was £75 secondhand then a new bulb may well be at least half of that or even most of that. So today I set about checking on suppliers and prices. Imagine my shock at seeing prices for new bulbs at over £200!Silverprint and Nova. One supplier that I had used for an enlarger lamp and found to be very reasonable told me that he had stopped stocking the Duka bulbs because he felt that the manufacturer was killing the market by the prices asked.

It would seem that either I take the plunge and pay an extortionate price for a new bulb or buy a complete fresh lamp secondhand and throw away my old one and take the risk that the bulb in the secondhand lamp is relatively new.

Can I ask where you obtained your lamp? How many hours have you got from it and if there is any way of checking how many hours a secondhand bulb may have been used for. I spotted one place in Dorset advertising a secondhand DUKA 50 as mint and unused for £65. Sounds quite good but it begs the question of (1)how do they know it to be unused unless they have personal knowledge of the previous owner and (2) why didn't he/she use it?

If a new bulb gave say 1500 hours of use and could be obtained for even £150 then the cost per hour becomes reasonable. Currently my DUKA runs out at about 50p or even more per hour.

Any help and advice would be gratefully received.

Pentaxuser

game said:

Has anyone heard of cooking water before mixing with developer?
In that way oxygenlevels should get lower and with that the oxydation of chemicals. This off course makes sure the mixure does not get old as quick as it would get normally...

A guy in the shop told me this today....

Game

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Yes, I often boil my developer water.

game said:

Has anyone heard of cooking water before mixing with developer?
In that way oxygenlevels should get lower and with that the oxydation of chemicals. This off course makes sure the mixure does not get old as quick as it would get normally...

A guy in the shop told me this today....

Game

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The amount of oxygen in the water is taken care of any reducing agent used in whatever type of solution is being made. For developers this is usually sodium sulfite.

Water is usually boiled for a few minutes and allowed to stand to remove the "temporary" hardness from the water. Tap water contains what is refered to as "temporary hardness" and "permanent hardness". The temporary hardness consists of calcium bicarbonate which precipitates out when the water is boiled. The calcium bicarbonate is converted to insoluble calcium bicarbonate. The permanent hardness consists of magesium salts which are not changed by boiling and remain in solution. They are therefore considered to be "permanent".

Boiled water is better than tap water as it contains fewer impurities but not as good as distilled or de-ionized water.

pentaxuser said:

Bob. I too use a DUKA. Mine is a DUKA 10 that I got secondhand from Nova. You may have seen my replies elsewhere praising its light intensity while still preventing fogging. <snip> ...Pentaxuser

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I got mine on the auction site so I've no idea how old it was at the time. A guestimate of my use is around 1000 hours since I got it.

A new Duka 10 for £65 may be worth it if you are sure it is really unused. Personally, I'd get an LED based safelight. They come up from time to time on the auction site but cost about £250 for the large Durst ones when new (you could get a couple of smaller ones initially).

If you are any good with soldering & practical electronics, the high power Lumiled LEDs available from Maplin might be one way to go.

Cheers, Bob.

Bob F. said:

I got mine on the auction site so I've no idea how old it was at the time. A guestimate of my use is around 1000 hours since I got it.

A new Duka 10 for £65 may be worth it if you are sure it is really unused. Personally, I'd get an LED based safelight. They come up from time to time on the auction site but cost about £250 for the large Durst ones when new (you could get a couple of smaller ones initially).

If you are any good with soldering & practical electronics, the high power Lumiled LEDs available from Maplin might be one way to go.

Cheers, Bob.

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Thanks Bob. After writing my note to you I went on to read the other threads on Duka. All of which confirmed what I was afraid of. There is no reasonably priced sodium lamps for the Duka. I must say if I'd got a 1000 hours out of mine as you have and given mine cost £75 I'd probably be satisfied. That's about 7.5 pence per hour.

I can't help feeling the mark-up on the lamps must be astronomical. How much can it cost to produce a small sodium arc lamp?

Will research the £65 Duka and talk to Nova and hope that my good customer status means something.

I suspect that lack of competition in this area of darkroom accessories and manufacturers belief that wet darkroom is a dying market means that they have nothing to lose by charging the earth to those whom they see as distress purchasers.

I can imagine petrol prices going the same way when almost everybody's car run on an alternative fuel because all but a few have made the change.

Pentaxuser

edz said:

Its not from Jobo but Nova. Its basically a couple of yellow LEDs in a plastic box with a cable to a variable AC-DC power supply (to adjust the intensity). The rear of the "light head" has some velco to allow one to attach and fix it to well defined positions.
The 5-Star is OK but doesn't produce much light. It is quite far removed from what I'd consider a viable darkroom illumination solution. It has its uses but, like the Jobo Minilux (and Minilight), only in conjunction with other lights.
For functionality the sodium vapor lamps can't be topped. The Kaiser Duka and Durst Sanat lamps are "the best" but they both have one very significant shortcoming: they are designed around special very expensive spectral lamps. A NA10-FL (used in the Osram/Kaiser Duka 10/50 and NOT to be confused with the NA10 which is a very different bulb and even uses a different voltage) costs nearly 200 EURO. There is good reason then that Durst abandoned the Sanat (which when it was available was 600 DM without bulb!) and replaced it with a LED safelight: the Labolux (a very good lamp at a significantly lower price and without call for expensive bulbs).
While the newer SOX-E bulbs (used in the Meteor-Siegen, Thomas and a few other safelights) are a small fraction of the price (and much more common) could have been used to design a new lamp with LED technology it clearly makes no sense.
Is the Kaiser Duka better than any LED lamp for colour? Sure, but........ when one considers that for less than the price of a single spare bulb one can ......

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Ed. You may have seen my latest note. Briefly my Duka 10 bulb has gone. The prices I have seen for a new bulb from the few U.K. suppliers that stock Duka are frankly ridiculous( about £200 or 330 euros). Do you know of any suppliers which charge less and if so how much?

The alternative is another secondhand Duka at about £70 - £90(120 -150 euros) but the problem is not knowing the life left in the bulb. If this was short then a secondhand Duka could be more expensive than a new bulb.

Are there guarantees with a new bulb that it will have a certain life? If this was, say, at least 2000 hours then even at £200 this is only 10p per. This starts to be reasonable.

I am reluctant to change to another lamp. As you and Bob F have said it gives an amazing light.

Thanks

Pentaxuser

game said:

Should a color darkroom always be without lights?
I have the feeling I once read an article in which was stated that it is possible to have special spectrum lamps that also allow you to see stuff even in a color darkroom. Something about Natrium light??

Anyone a clue, I could not find a thing when searching the forum
Thanks GAme

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You don't need a safe. Just get used to your darkroom and be aware of where you put things. Always recheck your paper box to make sure it is closed. You can use glow-in-the-dark tape to mark things like the grain focuser and foot switches, corners, etc. But don't use too much of it, as it will fog film. A hole punch makes nice dots as markers.

Bob F. said:

If you are any good with soldering & practical electronics, the high power Lumiled LEDs available from Maplin might be one way to go.

Cheers, Bob.

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Bob, I like the sould of that! I could have a string of small LED's around the ceiling

No idea what I am looking for in the Maplin catalogue though, could you give us a clue?