Short/past date Kodak film stock in Australia

[MattKing]

I think you're overestimating the damage Stephen's post caused Kodak.

I would agree. Stephen's post pointed to a generalized problem with distribution. It is of interest and concern to all who use or sell Kodak products supplied through those distribution channels. The post was fundamentally different than one person's complaint about a single transaction or item.

I do have a question, though. Do you think 20-25 years ago Kodak would have allowed a distributor to deliver expired goods?

In Canada, up to around 20-25 years ago there were no separate distributors - Kodak handled distribution directly. The bills came from Kodak, payment was made to Kodak, support came directly from Kodak only.

As I understand it, the situation was the same in most parts of the world.

It is the change in the distribution system that I am referring to (some would say harping on) in this thread.

I'll shut up now.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Interesting how things seem to have changed, for worse...
I regularly bought expired Kodachrome 200 from the Kodak dealer many years ago in Melbourne (c. 1987-89) because it was offered at a much cheaper price than long-dated. It was always coming from the fridge (professional emulsions) so the expiry never worried me.

Matt, please resume talking; your enlightening posts are most educational.

 

[ozphoto]

I think you're overestimating the damage Stephen's post caused Kodak.
I do have a question, though. Do you think 20-25 years ago Kodak would have allowed a distributor to deliver expired goods? I remember a few times, visiting my local camera store, when a Kodak rep was checking expiration dates on products. If an item was even close to past-date, he pulled it.
Distributors have written agreements with the companies they represent. I've no doubt the distributor responsible for this has a contractual agreement to supply fresh goods or, at the very least, not to supply dated goods as new.
I was raised on Kodak. I find their difficulties as painful as most here. But, the ultimate responsibility when you open a yellow box is theirs. They need to do a better job policing their distributors.

I also worked a very high volume lab, and the rep would drop by to shoot the breeze about anything and everything photographic - he was very sadly missed when he left the company.

I always remember him coming in just after Christmas to check on stock levels, to make sure we didn't have anything short dated/out of date. At one time the previous manager didn't rotate the stock very well, and ended up having to sell off cartons of outdated film, at knock-off prices, so he was concerned that perhaps, this had carried over when I was promoted.

At one stage we had well over 1000 cartons of film - most was very long dated, but those that weren't, he simply took back and swapped over for newer stock. (He knew that by splitting it amongst his other customers, he'd be able to get it out into the market place a lot faster than leaving it all with us.)

Sadly, it seems, those days of a rep knowing his product and interacting with the client are long gone - or if Kodak has restructured itself well, and is heel-bent on reviving the film component of it's business, the days of the true "rep" may return. Here's hoping!

 

[AgX]

The Problem with Kodak seems to be that they are meanwhile lacking people who know about film at their non-manufacturing subsidiaries.
At least I got information from within Kodak that makes me assume such issue to exist.

 

[PKM-25]

Only now does Kodak film stand a much better chance at becoming a great niche use item like Ilford film is. I think it is high time we stop rehashing the past issues and actually grow up a little and start helping them a bit.

I don't see this kind of thread helping matters and I am willing to bet a pallet of Tmax that Colleen Krenzer does not either.

 

[Ian Grant]

Only now does Kodak film stand a much better chance at becoming a great niche use item like Ilford film is. I think it is high time we stop rehashing the past issues and actually grow up a little and start helping them a bit.

I don't see this kind of thread helping matters and I am willing to bet a pallet of Tmax that Colleen Krenzer does not either.

I think you over estimate Kodak's abilities, their sales policies have been abysmal in recent years and the company itself contributed to an unnecessary decline in sales.

Here in the UK they closed their own distribution centre and contracted Sangers to handle this for them, Sangers was alreday been the importer of Kodak minilabs. Sangers then went bust continuity had been lost. Then a new company took over based around the former Kodak distribution staff, they have a good reputation. But it's hard to find Kodak films on dealers shelves the damage had been done.

It's the same in other countries, I used to use Tmax100 in all formats but after moving abroad from the UK I found it was difficult to find in many countries, Kodak concentrated on selling consumer colour films through minilab outlets. Ilford films and surprisingly Foma can be found in most countries easily so I reluctantly switched from Tmax.

Part of the problem is Kodak no longer sell a range of B&W products since they dropped papers, and outside the US Fuji are dominant in the colour market.

Ian

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

We do not use Kodak products for production.

Reason why:

Part of the problem is Kodak no longer sell a range of B&W products since they dropped papers, and outside the US Fuji are dominant in the colour market.

Quite true. People will not buy, use or enjoy film if they cannot bloody well find the stuff in the first place! Isn't that why Fuji enjoys a comparatively buoyant market presence?

 

[Ian Grant]

Part of the dilemna is Kodak sells into too many disparate markets, the bulk of their sales of film (colour) paper and chemistry (outside of the movie industry) goes to minilabs (often Kodak Express) and the few larger labs left around the world. Here they are selling a package from start to finish, the minilabs themselves and all the consumables and it's a reasonably constant market with its seasonal peaks.

The issue is the Photostores, I can think of many with minilabs but usually Fuji, Noritsu, and older Agfa and Konica machines, and Fuji have a large share of this market. Kodak have very little to sell via these stores so they seem to be neglected by their sales force (distributors).

I was actually quite surprised to find Kodak B&W films almost impossible to find in some capital cities and even more astonished that there was plenty of Foma film & paper everywhere, as were Ilfords full range.

What we don't ever hear is how Kodak's sales of film products has changed around the world but from my practical experiences they seem to have largely retreated into their home markets.

Ian

 

[ozphoto]

It's possible that because some of the smaller stores aren't ordering in large quantities, Kodak don't see them as worth their time - Stephen mentioned earlier that they didn't want to create an account for him, simply because he wasn't ordering enough.

If that is indeed the case, their B&W paper products are not going to be stocked, if the store sells small quantities, whereas, the supplier for Foma etc (is it still Adeal?) is happy to allow for small quantity orders, hence the ability to find it on the shelf.

Kodak AU needs to pull it's head out of its a***, and start realising that whilst not everyone runs a minilab, their product is still very popular with customers who frequent smaller, niche stores.

By *not* supplying fresh stock, and B&W products openly to the smaller stores they're effectively a) hurting the small business owner by forcing people to shop elsewhere because their favourite store can't supply Kodak products and b) losing sales in an area they want to continue to promote. (Because who goes to a supermarket or minilab to purchase B&W processing & printing products??)

If they insist on using another distributor for smaller businesses (in AU), then they really do need to take control of the QC issue. Having out of date stock being delivered to their customers is not a good reflection on the big yellow K, then add to that lost revenue and all of a sudden they aren't making as much profit (again), and that could lead to even bigger problems.

Here's hoping they can get it all under control and the photo businesses in AU (big & small) can continue to support Kodak, with an expectation of the same in return.

 

[clayne]

Kodak B&W paper products have been toast for a while now. I hate to say it but I doubt this is Kodak's doing and more AU approach to the film business.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Kodak B&W paper products have been toast for a while now. I hate to say it but I doubt this is Kodak's doing and more AU approach to the film business.

Well, maybe not. How is it the "AU approach to film business"? Nobody quite knows where, or if there is a Kodak in Australia. For their information, film hasn't died, only Kodak (in name at least, subject to a date of resurrection and visible presence). There is a Ilford. And there is FOMA, and they're doing a brisk trade, and why not? Readily available, acccessible, very good quality, a lot of positive user reviews brings repeat business. I do however, have a major problem understanding the approach of retailers to film. Elsewhere here on APUG I have voiced concerns about the pricing of film. Nobody seems to complain about Kodak's film ... because they cannot find Kodak film!

 

[clayne]

You need to clarify that for Australia. MANY people are finding Kodak film quite perfectly fine - and not only from the USA.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

It's possible that because some of the smaller stores aren't ordering in large quantities, Kodak don't see them as worth their time - Stephen mentioned earlier that they didn't want to create an account for him, simply because he wasn't ordering enough.

This is factually Incorrect! Kodak Australia didn't want to give me an account for 2 reasons

The First being that I was a 23 year old who had just built his own analog pro lab and they didn't have confidence in the idea of me not offering digital services.
I would like to point out their misjudgement because 8 years later I'm still here and have seen many labs in my area which they did support fall.

Second I would like to point out that they wanted to know my personal wealth. Something I don't see as being any of their business.

I was one of the largest consumers of Kodaks E-6 and C-41 chemistry in the country but have switched to Fuji Hunt and I' m still one of the biggest consumers of Kodak Black and white chemistry.

In terms of their paper stocks being a hand printer of course its harder to use as much volume as digital pro labs however there was never an issue of me meeting their minimum order quantities or values.

 

[ozphoto]

This is factually Incorrect! Kodak Australia didn't want to give me an account for 2 reasons

The First being that I was a 23 year old who had just built his own analog pro lab and they didn't have confidence in the idea of me not offering digital services.
I would like to point out their misjudgement because 8 years later I'm still here and have seen many labs in my area which they did support fall.

Second I would like to point out that they wanted to know my personal wealth. Something I don't see as being any of their business.

I was one of the largest consumers of Kodaks E-6 and C-41 chemistry in the country but have switched to Fuji Hunt and I' m still one of the biggest consumers of Kodak Black and white chemistry.

In terms of their paper stocks being a hand printer of course its harder to use as much volume as digital pro labs however there was never an issue of me meeting their minimum order quantities or values.

Sorry Stephen - I stand corrected. Opening an account should be a painless process - if you are in the black I don't see a problem with allowing you to purchase on a 30day account.

Of course, that would be using common sense, and I guess more often than not, that is *not* relevant to business situations (hence so many problems happening with so many companies these days....)

 

[AgX]

The First being that I was a 23 year old who had just built his own analog pro lab and they didn't have confidence in the idea of me not offering digital services.

So much about one of Kodak's department's believe in and devotion to classic photography even 8 years ago.

 

[MattKing]

Kodak was like a lot of suppliers for a long time.

COD unless/until you had a track record with them or a financial statement that would impress a banker.

Anyone here ever known a photographer or lab that didn't pay his/her/its bills promptly

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

[...]
Anyone here ever known a photographer or lab that didn't pay his/her/its bills promptly

Yes. Me.
I they take their time, I take my time. Savvy.