Shooting with expired plates

brenjacques · Nov 23, 2021

Hi all,

I hope I'm posting this in the right section. I play around a lot with expired film and generally get good results. I now moving onto photographic plates due to the explosion of interest in lomo etc, older films seem to be attracting better prices than the pennies they could be picked up for some years ago.

I have recently bought a Houghton Butcher Cameo folding plate camera in excellent working condition which I intend to use and have also sourced a few boxes of ortho plates. I plan on using these similar to film, with downgrading the iso to a very low speed which I'm sure should work just as well with them.

The only thing that I am having trouble with understanding is that all of these are 'Backed' plates, from my understanding an anti-halo backing as used with some films. I decided to sacrifice one plate to the light of day as this is a new area of photography for me, and found as expected - emulsion on one side and clear, uncoated glossy glass on the other. I can only presume that the backing is applied to the glass before the film emulsion.

I've tried to research this into more detail but to no avail, so I'd be grateful for any advice of using backed plates. I presume they are used as standard types with the emulsion side facing outwards of the plate holders. I'm looking forward to my first shots with them!

Donald Qualls · Nov 23, 2021

You are certainly correct on how to load the plates -- emulsion toward the lens, that is. An added advantage of ortho plates is you can load them under red safelight, so you can actually see what you're doing (though my experience loading film sheaths is that the plate loading mechanism is easier to use than a modern 4x5 film holder).

Wikipedia suggests that "glass backed" plate may simply mean emulsion coated on glass vs. on film -- that is, the plate is glass backed rather than plastic backed.

grat · Nov 23, 2021

I'm also interested in this topic. In a fit of what can only be described as "unbridled optimism", I agreed to pay money for some Kodak P.1500 plates expired in the late 1940's. Supposedly, they've been stored well (not refrigerated, but cool and dry), and are described on the package as "Tropically Hardened", so I'm somewhat hopeful.

But now to the point-- I understand any old emulsion like this is going have strong fogging-- has anyone done any experimenting with benzotriazole and expired glass plates?

JensH · Nov 23, 2021

grat said:
But now to the point-- I understand any old emulsion like this is going have strong fogging-- has anyone done any experimenting with benzotriazole and expired glass plates?

Hi,

I exposed many old films made in the 1930s to 1950s on glass plates or celluloid (nitro films) for this project: https://www.flickr.com/photos/136145166@N02/albums/72157686135321996 ...
Fog is present, sometimes just a bit, sometimes more close to the borders, sometimes heavy...
Never used benzotriazole or such.

Have fun and good luck
Jens

BAC1967 · Nov 23, 2021

I shot some expired Soviet plates recently. The biggest problem was splotches all over it. Not sure what it was from, mold, contamination from the paper separators or something else. I came to the conclusion that J Layne dry plates are a much better deal.

JensH · Nov 24, 2021

BAC1967 said:
I shot some expired Soviet plates recently. The biggest problem was splotches all over it. Not sure what it was from, mold, contamination from the paper separators or something else. I came to the conclusion that J Layne dry plates are a much better deal.

Indeed mold/fungus is nasty...
It is a game to get vintage plates working in cameras as old as that film.
A well aged Kodak Panatomic or Perutz Silbereosin plate can be fantastic!
Nothing against modern dry plates or sheet film with inserts...

brenjacques · Nov 24, 2021

Thanks for the replies everyone. I have done a little more research and I think the 'backed' stamping does refer to an anti-halation layer between the glass and emulsion, I'd imaging coating both sides of the plate, one side with this layer would have proved problematic.

As with expired films there are a lot of variables. I've found (generally) faster speed film to have more fog than slower speeds but it also depends on how it has been stored over years. You're running a risk if the packaging itself has mold/foxing. I generally look for sealed packaging that looks in good order and often with black and white the results are very good.

I have recently discovered J Lane plates, they do look great so I'll be purchasing a pack soon. I do love the expired stuff though, generally if you buy right the results are good and the price is low. I bought three packs of 12 plates for £15, all I imagine should turn out quite well bar sacrificing a couple for experimenting, I can't complain at that!

Nodda Duma · Nov 24, 2021

Brenjacques, orthochromatic emulsion would have a pink/yellow or yellowish color to it. If the color was different (dark?) when you looked at the back of the plate, then it is backed with an anti-halation dye between the emulsion layer and glass.

It is a curious way to describe having an anti-halation layer. The only other thing I could think of is the emulsion layer is intended to be lifted away from the glass after development.. perhaps on a celluloid substrate like film but which is backed with the glass plate.

Good luck. The same developing approach you use for old film should apply for these.

Agulliver · Nov 24, 2021

I've shot some old Ilford and Kodak plates. One difficulty is figuring out what the equivalent ASA/ISO was when plates were new as in days of yore there were various different speed ratings for films and ASA was even changed circa 1960. So knowing when your plates were manufactured and which speed rating is used can be confusing. Plates from the 50s or earlier might say 200ASA but that is not the same as 200ASA means today! Ilford and Kodak had their own speed systems, there was the Weston system too. Plus GOST for Soviet material.

that said, I used expired plates purchased for peanuts on eBay before I bought a couple of boxes of new ones just to check that the one plate camera I have was functioning, and got a couple of decent photographs out of them. Our friend above produces most excellent brand new plates which were well worth it once I'd ascertained the camera had no glaring faults.

Donald Qualls · Nov 24, 2021

GOST isn't hard, it's 90% of modern ASA -- that is, an ASA 400 film would be 360 GOST. Given latitude of most negative materials, that's close enough to treat them as interchangeable.

For other speed systems, I've seen a chart somewhere (here, near the bottom of the page) with conversions from Weston to (old) ASA (before 1960, ASA gave almost all films 1/2 their new ASA speed -- Verichrome Pan, for instance, was introduced in the 1950s as ASA 64). DIN didn't change and is incorporated in modern ISO speed listings (though there were a very few films that didn't match the usual conversion of 21 DIN = new ASA 100 and +3 DIN degrees = 2x ASA -- due to, I think, a spectral sensitivity point in the DIN standard). There were some more obscure speed systems, too, of course; seems to me the conversion chart for Weston to ASA has those as well.

Jojje · Nov 24, 2021

Been playing with expired plates myself a bit. Used hard contrast developer (self mixed) with good results, print developer might work, too? According my experience 1940's Ilford HP3, originally ASA 200 is nowadays 25. A bit of a trouble is sensing in the dark which side of the panchromatic plates is emulsion: at least on Ilford plates which have the anti halation backing on the other side and the emulsion side on the other the emulsion side feels smoother, anti halation can even have small lumps. Better concentrate a bit while loading preferably 2 to 4 plates at a time remembering Ilford Manual
of photography: "Plates are usually packed in pairs, emulsion to emulsion, the emulsion surfaces being prevented from touching by slips of card or by interleaving paper."
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jojjek/50905832917

richyd · Nov 24, 2021

I love using old glass plates. The images I like the best came from Ilford plates manufactured in 1922. I have made contact Argyrotype prints from the best two and they came out surprisingly well. I developed my plates using HC110 because that is supposed to good for fog but I changed to Microphen for some HP3 plates and prefer that result. I concur that the HP3 is now around ASA 25. I have exposed at 32.

I acquired some Agfa 33 plates but unfortunately they suffered from mottling, probably from damp storage at some stage and reacting with interleaving paper I also had a problem identifying emulsion and again my experience is the same as Jojje.

brenjacques · Nov 25, 2021

It's very interesting to hear of everyone's experiences of using expired plates, it isn't as popular as film and for obvious reasons. With reference to Jojje's post, I have some Ilford Selo plates from the early 1950s that are stamped 'backed', this is the packet that I sacrificed one from and it is only coated on one side of the plate. I do have a pack of Kodak fast ortho plates from around the same date that are also backed, I'll have to look at one of these too and see if they are coated on both sides.

With reference to Nodda Duma's post, The Ilford plate I had a yellow/cream colour emulsion to it, but it was identical viewing from both sides of the plate. Maybe they were supposed to be backed but missed out on the backing application or wrongly stamped. I'm excited to see what results I get from them, it may be a few weeks before I shoot a few but I'll keep this thread up to date with results.

Nodda Duma · Nov 25, 2021

Good luck! You should be able to develop by inspection under a safelight, similar to developing prints.

Shooting with expired plates

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