Shooting film in a digital world-a mini documentary

PKM-25 said:

I'm saying that I get energized by sharing my passion and my images with people in the real world and then get the wind knocked out of me when I come on here and read a thread like this.

The film is not perfect but I feel proud and all good inside when I see it...

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I understand that and respect your opinion. I and some others feel differently. I think that you should try not to take it so personally. God knows we all don't like the same photographs, music and on and on...

Lots of people in the real world and online don't like my work but I don't let that discourage me from making more. You can't put something out into the world, like art, music or even the video in question, and not expect people to have mixed feelings about it... nor should that stop you from putting it out there in the first place.

I believe that as long as a discussion about such things is sincere and not egregiously articulated it is in and of itself a positive and an opportunity to learn or at least better understand another point of view.

As with all things internet, context is an issue.

APUG, which I have been privileged to have been a member for a while is a niche area of photography as a whole, but the majority of people here feel this is their tribe and they are: number one, worried about it's future, number two, feel over whelmed by digital and by adolescent type digital photographers who "don't get it", and number three, even find their own members slowly become more "digitized".

So they are a bit fragile and probably rightly so.

But here is my context.

I don't see photography as digital, analog, large format, small format, art, craft or any other subspecies of the mothership. To me, it's all photography. And that is what I do. 365 days a year, for 38 years. It's what I do, what I think, and what I live and breath. It's my profession and it's my hobby. Every day I talk to other photographers. We discuss business, trends, styles and ideas. I attend seminars, workshops, and conventions. Over half my home is devoted strictly to photography. My wife says she lives in a house filled with strangers on the walls. I'm absolutely immersed in it in all aspect of my life, and it's taken many forms. I've reinvented myself in it a number of times.

Some here lately have called me an interloper. "What are you doing here, you aren't analog?" "You're just a shit disturber who's gone digital" And that is true.

But the reason is simple. It's a photography site. And a good one. To me photography is photography. Different tools, different methods, but when all is said and done, it's capturing an image, or taking a picture and printing it for someone to see and respond to.

I've seen crappy snapshots by grandmothers that would put Ansel Adams to shame with the power and emotional content of the image. I've also seen environmental pictures that have the power to make you cry. And I've seen some of the most incredible printing methods that produce results that are absolutely soulless. I've seen people emotional by a Sears portrait. I've seen pictures that can pull you out of depression, or put you in a depression. I've seen pictures that exude such joy that you are overwhelmed. I've had people come to me to get a print of a son I photographed a couple of years earlier, who just died in a car accident. I've photographed wedding couples that broke up during the honeymoon, and one that broke up the night before the wedding. I've photographed people for their obituary photograph. I've photographed hundreds of children who are now all grown up with their own children. I've photographed families that have disbanded.

So this is powerful shit we're doing here. We are the people who stop time. We photograph places that no longer exist and we also photograph people who no longer exist. We create memories, we record history, we catch the infectious smile of a three year old and the majesty of mother nature. And seriously, we're sitting around sniping at people who use a different camera, or a different method of printing. We hold a miraculous instrument in our hands, an honest to god time machine and we're bitching about process.

I get that lots of people here like this as a hobby. Enjoy the solitude and the mixing of the elixirs. Love the process and the magic of it all. The craft of it all. The history of it all. I get all that. But you are only a part of the whole. A small part. And the whole is photography. The whole is the stopping of the clock for a portion of a second and collecting that incredible light and that perfect form. Because if you didn't do it, it would be gone forever. And everything on the film or on that sensor no longer exists.

So when someone strikes out at one part of the whole for the benefit of another part, it is senseless. It's two guys in a marathon stopping and blocking the road arguing which running shoes are better.

And if you say, that's what I did dissing this video. You'd be wrong. I just called out the bullshit.

I followed this BBS for a long time before signing up. All the bickering didn't keep my from joining APUG. Then again, I'm no stranger to BBSes. I'd not worry about the arguments, people searching for information are likely finding threads related to their specific search queries.

blansky said:

So when someone strikes out at one part of the whole for the benefit of another part, it is senseless.

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<snip snip snip snip snip ho hum snip snip snip>

Dear sweet God, finally, he arrives at the bloody point! No it isn't senseless, one thing threatens to obliterate the other and despite your childish tantrums about it going back years they are not the same thing. They are equals but they are not equivalents. You've gone over to one side, and fling back attacks and feeble platitudes about how you are really one of us still on this side because (you've convinced yourself) there are no sides. Talk about tripe.

Wayne said:

<snip snip snip snip snip ho hum snip snip snip>

Dear sweet God, finally, he arrives at the bloody point! No it isn't senseless, one thing threatens to obliterate the other and despite your childish tantrums about it going back years they are not the same thing. They are equals but they are not equivalents. You've gone over to one side, and fling back attacks and feeble platitudes about how you are really one of us still on this side because (you've convinced yourself) there are no sides. Talk about tripe.

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Tantrums?

Gone over to one side and fling back attacks?

One of us?

Wow. I'm guessing your darkroom is in some sort of bunker.

Some here lately have called me an interloper. "What are you doing here, you aren't analog?" "You're just a shit disturber who's gone digital" And that is true.


I have been here now 10 years like you have, You have always been a bit of the above, I remember the great tantrum of 2007, that was classic. I was surprised at how tall you were when we met. Your lecture at the APUG conference was considered on of the highlights.

Bob Carnie said:

Some here lately have called me an interloper. "What are you doing here, you aren't analog?" "You're just a shit disturber who's gone digital" And that is true.


I have been here now 10 years like you have, You have always been a bit of the above, I remember the great tantrum of 2007, that was classic. I was surprised at how tall you were when we met. Your lecture at the APUG conference was considered on of the highlights.

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Thanks Bob, you're such a bullshitter.

Sean just contacted me and told me I'd used up my word allotment and was costing him too much money.

Good luck with your photography guys.

blansky said:

So this is powerful shit we're doing here. We are the people who stop time. We photograph places that no longer exist and we also photograph people who no longer exist. We create memories, we record history, we catch the infectious smile of a three year old and the majesty of mother nature.

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Yes, yes, yes. I agree so much with this. To me the job of the photographer is to make documents of things that feel important to them, and then do what they can to convey that in the best possible way.
We do that in so many different ways that it's becoming almost difficult to keep track of it all.
Color print film, scanned and worked digitally, printed inkjet.
Color print film, enlarged optically on RA4 paper.
Color slide film, scanned and worked digitally.
Color slide film, projected.
Digital color capture, worked digitally, printed inkjet.
Digital color capture, b&w converted, printed inkjet.
b&w film, scanned and worked digitally, printed inkjet
b&w film, enlarged optically on silver gelatin paper (don't forget about toners, different papers)
b&w film, enlarged optically as lith print on silver gelatin paper
b&w film, enlarged optically on surfaces with liquid emulsion
b&w film, enlarged, bleached back, and made bromoil prints out of
Digital negatives from all of the above to make:
- platinum and/or palladium prints
- kalitypes
- cyanotypes
- salt prints
- albumen prints
- copper or polymer photogravure, etc

Today the possibilities are almost endless, and while this forum is geared toward the use of film and preferably darkroom, the end result is largely the same - a print that somebody will hopefully cherish for a lifetime, or something a printer took a lot of pleasure or had a great emotional ride making. Do it well and the importance of the medium simply disappears and becomes just an intermediary step to set forth our vision.

I'm very glad that so many others want film to carry on and thrive. Many of us film users feel a bit bombarded in this increasingly digital and connected world, and it's easy to get defensive.

So, I will try to continue to do what I always do - speak well of film and tell people how much joy it gives me, not bash digital, and hopefully help a few more photographers make informed decisions about how they want to work with their art.

Wayne said:

<snip snip snip snip snip ho hum snip snip snip>

Dear sweet God, finally, he arrives at the bloody point! No it isn't senseless, one thing threatens to obliterate the other and despite your childish tantrums about it going back years they are not the same thing. They are equals but they are not equivalents. You've gone over to one side, and fling back attacks and feeble platitudes about how you are really one of us still on this side because (you've convinced yourself) there are no sides. Talk about tripe.

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I think you may need more fibre in your diet!

blansky said:

Sean just contacted me and told me I'd used up my word allotment and was costing him too much money.

Good luck with your photography guys.

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I hope not!!! :confused:

blansky said:

Sean just contacted me and told me I'd used up my word allotment and was costing him too much money.

Good luck with your photography guys.

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I hope I am misreading this post, People like Blansky and Bob Carnie even if they are "misguided" are necessary for this forum to thrive, without opposition and some injections of painful truths (for the analogue world) this forum would get seriously boring and wither away.

Thank you

It has been painful to see some very talented people leave this site, Jorge in his day was something to witness, Sandy King is the most giving individual I have ever met, we certainly miss both here on APUG, but that I guess is the nature of the beast.

I am hoping for the day that Sean hits his head on some wood and changes his mind about the digital neg making aspect, as frankly this is the next generation of wet printmaking, but I will still hang out and hope for that day.
I think we all would be surprised how many people with real printmaking skills would come back to this site or actually visit and stay.

MDR said:

I hope I am misreading this post, People like Blansky and Bob Carnie even if they are "misguided" are necessary for this forum to thrive, without opposition and some injections of painful truths (for the analogue world) this forum would get seriously boring and wither away.

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My take on the issue is the same as Bob's. Once upon a time, the recommendation from NZ Central was to go to hybridphoto. That site no longer exists. It seems that making it dpug has "successfully" completed its transition to almost exclusively digital. Here is a response (accurate) to a posting on dpug I made recently.

me: "I still think of the site as hybridphoto and wish it hadn't changed identity, but hopefully the original mission is still here (??)."

pschwartz: "Only 10 postings in the Hand Coated Wet Prints forum for all of 2013. Unless you want to join the endless discussions about scanning and digital negatives, there is not much here that bears directly on printmaking. The opportunity exists, but I guess printmakers are reluctant to post when they know their activities are of of only passing interest to the majority."

The barrier against even saying the word 'digital' has been thoroughly shattered here, so please, can't we now start talking about digital negatives and all their analog pairing potentials?

Duuuddeee now were talking

dwross said:

My take on the issue is the same as Bob's. Once upon a time, the recommendation from NZ Central was to go to hybridphoto. That site no longer exists. It seems that making it dpug has "successfully" completed its transition to almost exclusively digital. Here is a response (accurate) to a posting on dpug I made recently.

me: "I still think of the site as hybridphoto and wish it hadn't changed identity, but hopefully the original mission is still here (??)."

pschwartz: "Only 10 postings in the Hand Coated Wet Prints forum for all of 2013. Unless you want to join the endless discussions about scanning and digital negatives, there is not much here that bears directly on printmaking. The opportunity exists, but I guess printmakers are reluctant to post when they know their activities are of of only passing interest to the majority."

The barrier against even saying the word 'digital' has been thoroughly shattered here, so please, can't we now start talking about digital negatives and all their analog pairing potentials?

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Dinesh said:

I think you may need more fibre in your diet!

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We've already seen the kind of flatulence that can cause.

I think it's funny that APUG is anti hybrid as the vast majority of Apug members shooting color film are already hybrid users. The machines at wall mart costco and even at your local pro lab first scan the neg = digitalize and use the scan data and not the analogue neg to produce a print on photopaper that was optimized for a digital not analogue workflow. Most new Kodak films including the B/W were optimized for a hybrid workflow.

That beeing said APUG should concentrate on analogue photography but maybe it would be acceptable to create a hybrid workflow subforum. This would help to generate new memberships and keep people like Bob Carnie, Denise Ross and others that have so much to offer to Apug in the fold.

Where do all these sages of photography go when they leave here?

MDR said:

That beeing said APUG should concentrate on analogue photography but maybe it would be acceptable to create a hybrid workflow subforum. This would help to generate new memberships and keep people like Bob Carnie, Denise Ross and others that have so much to offer to Apug in the fold.

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I've always been on the side of keeping APUG strictly "anaolg" but I do believe the above is reasonable.

I too find it ironic that of the 50,000 members of APUG you will find your description very accurate for probably 95% . 5 % actually go into a darkroom and make prints on an enlarger, and I am thankfully one of them and that is the reason I am here.

Contrary to what many here may think, due to the fact that my company is a pro lab competing in a very tough market.

though I have the latest of digital equipment for exposing, scanning printing , I have never, ever, used a digital camera.
Onsite at Elevator is a Hassalblad phase camera system , Cannon 5d and a Leica digital systems . but I do not use them , I would not have a clue
how to even turn on the cameras.

I use a 100 year old Century 8x10 camera, a 4x5 Sinar Mono Rail system, and Fuji 6x9 and Pentax 6 x7 systems, for small stuff we have a Leica system that I will use.
I have never seen the need for using a digital camera when I have a candy shop so to speak to process my film, and quite frankly am very happy with the results film give me.
But I am not myopic enough to dismiss digital capture and printing applications as they have huge advantages over film in a commercial world, and yes Martha the quality of the new systems do match or sometimes exceed that of film.


Ok I lie , I use the camera on my phone to take pictures of my dogs.

I feel that I have to concretize my post the hybrid subforum should have strict rules no discussion about Digicams (like which is better) the discussions should be centered on the hybrid workflow. Little computer talk only the necessary steps and required settings or adjustments. I am afraid that if there wouldn't be these kinds of rules the Hybrid subforum would end up like Hypridphoto now Dpug and that's not something I want.

Well they go make prints and forget about the wankers who bring them down here.

QUOTE=Hatchetman;1603502]Where do all these sages of photography go when they leave here?[/QUOTE]

there's always something very reassuring about a North American using a word like "wankers"

I believe they are a worldwide problem.

pdeeh said:

there's always something very reassuring about a North American using a word like "wankers"

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Shouldn't it be bloody wankers, I agree wankers sounds better than jerks

And it's done worldwide by men of all ages