Shooting black and white in the snow

jmccl@yahoo.com · Dec 14, 2015

I'm headed for Park City for Christmas and will be taking a couple of circa 1951 range finders. Using my Weston 715 meter, how many stops should I add to get white snow assuming no filtering? If I use a red filter to get that beautiful blue sky rendered as black, how many stops should I open to keep my snow white? Of course, I'm still praying for snow up there, otherwise this whole thread could be moot.

Thanks for your response.

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2015

1) If you take a reading of the snow only you will get photographs of the moguls and everything else will be black.
2) Take reading off your hand and open the lens one f/stop.
3) Take a general reading and open up two f/stops.
4) Take an incident reading [the best way]

Using a red filter off 3 f/stops from readings #2, #3, or #4.

I like Deer Valley better than Park City. Deer Valley has better service and the great plus that it is skiers only. I like deep powder even better and would rather go to Snowbird but given the steepness of Snow Bird you are better off with Park City or Deer Valley.

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2015

Since it is reflective ( not ideal ) I would follow what Sirius says above, but if the conditions permit, compare it to sunny F16 and see if it jives. If you get fresh snow over everything and a blue bird day, you can go sunny F16.5 and get lots of nice texture in the snow if no people in it.

I take my M3 and M6TTL up all the time and go no meter simply by experience, ISO 400, overcast day, 1/250 @ F4-5.6, backlit sunny, 1/1,000th at F11, etc, etc. I snowboard about 100 days a season ( sorry Sirius, don't agree he needs to go to Deer Valley, we have been around long enough to know how to check our our blind spots ) and would never bring a reflective meter, incident 100% of the time. In fact, I only own either incident or spot meters. I'd get a Gossen digisix ( I own two ) or Sekonic L-308 and be 100% sure if if were me.

Just be aware that even if you don't get fresh snow during your stay, there are always lots of great shots to be had, you just have to refine your vision, find shaded areas that have not been beaten down by the sun, things like that. But yes, fresh snow is always the most desirable, as my attached photo will clearly express...

Have fun out there!

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2015

Ai Print said:
( sorry Sirius, don't agree he needs to go to Deer Valley, we have been around long enough to know how to check our our blind spots )

It has gotten better but I like the quiet sounds not the scrapping sounds of a snow board on ice.

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
It has gotten better but I like the quiet sounds not the scrapping sounds of a snow board on ice.

If it's ice or firm groomers, you will hear it no matter who is side slipping it, just a different frequency of "scccccrrrrraaaaappppe", LOL!

P.S. I have lived in a ski town for nearly 20 years, two edges or one, there is no substitute for experience....

blockend · Dec 14, 2015

2 stops as a guide but add common sense, a grey overcast sky and a backlit snow scape in brilliant sunshine are different things.

Rick A · Dec 14, 2015

I used to live in Park City, on Park Ave. across from the old high school. I skied Deer Valley before it was a resort, they were just cutting runs back then.I moved out to Kamas when they put the bypass in and installed the traffic light behind my house. My ex-wife and two of my boys still live there. Do what Sirius says and you'll be fine.
Brag: my late father in law used to be the head groomer at PC, he would pick me up in a snow cat at 6:00 am and give me a ride to the top of Jupiter Peak so I could get a run in before work. More than a few times I would get bombed by pissed off skiers riding the lifts because I was putting the first marks in fresh white.

jmccl@yahoo.com · Dec 14, 2015

Rick A said:
I used to live in Park City, on Park Ave. across from the old high school. I skied Deer Valley before it was a resort, they were just cutting runs back then.I moved out to Kamas when they put the bypass in and installed the traffic light behind my house. My ex-wife and two of my boys still live there. Do what Sirius says and you'll be fine.
Brag: my late father in law used to be the head groomer at PC, he would pick me up in a snow cat at 6:00 am and give me a ride to the top of Jupiter Peak so I could get a run in before work. More than a few times I would get bombed by pissed off skiers riding the lifts because I was putting the first marks in fresh white.

'Tis far better to be off piste than to be pissed off

Jim Jones · Dec 14, 2015

Until you know exactly how to meter for the effect you want, bracket! Experiment with your rangefinder cameras as a learning experience. Small format film is a fraction of the total investment in most photography, especially on a special trip. I usually use a red filter and expose and develop for increased contrast to enhance the texture in snow. Ah, for the days of Kodak Tech Pan! Also consider the effect of a polarizer. Remember, what works best for any of us isn't necessarily good for anyone else. Each of us should be our own best teacher.

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2015

In 1971 I was asked by a city official in Park City to just take over one of the old buildings and promise to start fixing it up in five years. No cost and no taxes for 10 years. I was in grad school and I was smart enough to know that I did not want to be tied down to some property. I was so GD smart back then!

alanrockwood · Dec 14, 2015

Fresh snow in Utah today, and lots of it. I assume the same for the ski resorts.

RobC · Dec 14, 2015

+1 to Jim.

Take great care with metering advice. To be able to meter accurately with any type of meter will depend on you having done suitable and accurate testing with that particular film and that particular meter. This is especially true when you are dealing with a very high key suubject which is right on the borderline of blown out or not.

A yellow, orange or even a red filter will work wonders if there is blue sky. When its overcast or snowing, getting any contrast in the snow is very difficult.

jmccl@yahoo.com · Dec 14, 2015

RobC said:
+1 to Jim.

Take great care with metering advice. To be able to meter accurately with any type of meter will depend on you having done suitable and accurate testing with that particular film and that particular meter. This is especially true when you are dealing with a very high key suubject which is right on the borderline of blown out or not.

A yellow, orange or even a red filter will work wonders if there is blue sky. When its overcast or snowing, getting any contrast in the snow is very difficult.

10-4 on the "overcast" conditions. The skiers call it "flat light". Didn't Bode complain about that in Sochi? The current forecast for the time I'm there is for cloudy and snow, so I'm not sure how I'm going to approach things. I have a polarizer for my Ikonta 6X9, maybe that will improve the contrast. Skiers tend to use orange tint on their goggles for flat conditions, maybe I should use the red or orange filter. Well, it's all for fun and the experience of being the catalyst between the elements in the scene and the film technology. I guess I'll use my best guess after checking the meter, try to keep notes, and see what the results are and learn what I learn.

Loren Sattler · Dec 14, 2015

Yellow filtration for a natural look

Yellow filtration for nice detail in the snow in bright sunshine has been recommended in previous reading I have done over the years. It has worked well for me at sea level, but I have not done much high altitude B&W photography. There is a lot of blue light in snow in bright sunshine. Yellow filtration can yield more natural looking snow than red filtration.

Sirius Glass · Dec 15, 2015

Or you can make the snow yellow.

Ai Print · Dec 15, 2015

Snowed all day long today, re-loads on powder runs. So it must be shaping up nice in Utah as well.

My last run down was along the rope line of the racecourse, completely untracked = face shots!

macfred · Dec 16, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Or you can make the snow yellow.

Remember what the Eskimo mama said : Watch out where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow ...

UtahFilmPhotography · Dec 16, 2015

Great topic since we've been dumped on since Monday (14"+ at my house) AND plan on doing some shooting this week.

I've lived in Utah my entire life and have never been skiing. Knowing my personality, I tend to pick expensive hobbies and don't need another.

narsuitus · Dec 16, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Using a red filter off 3 f/stops from readings #2, #3, or #4.

For my clarification, are you saying, "If a red filter is used, use meter reading #2, #3, or #4 and open 3 additional f/stops."

narsuitus · Dec 16, 2015

Ai Print said:
If you get fresh snow over everything and a blue bird day, you can go sunny F16.5 and get lots of nice texture in the snow if no people in it.

The Sunny 16 exposure guidelines I have seen say that for a brilliant scene, such as snow in bright sunlight, reduce the exposure by 1 f/stop. Are you saying that instead of reducing the exposure by one f/stop, reduce it by 1/2 f/stop instead?

Rick A · Dec 16, 2015

In a nutshell, your meter will tell you what exposure to make medium gray. If you want white to be white, you generally have to add a couple of stops extra exposure. Using that data, and then add a filter, you must add whatever the filter factor is to get the final exposure.

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2015

UtahFilmPhotography said:
Great topic since we've been dumped on since Monday (14"+ at my house) AND plan on doing some shooting this week.

I've lived in Utah my entire life and have never been skiing. Knowing my personality, I tend to pick expensive hobbies and don't need another.

Welcome to APUG

You live in the Greatest Snow on Earth and you won't ski on it? What is wrong with this picture?

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2015

narsuitus said:
For my clarification, are you saying, "If a red filter is used, use meter reading #2, #3, or #4 and open 3 additional f/stops."

Using #2 or #3 or #4 open 3 additional f/stops.

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2015

Rick A said:
In a nutshell, your meter will tell you what exposure to make medium gray. If you want white to be white, you generally have to add a couple of stops extra exposure. Using that data, and then add a filter, you must add whatever the filter factor is to get the final exposure.

Yep.

Ai Print · Dec 16, 2015

narsuitus said:
The Sunny 16 exposure guidelines I have seen say that for a brilliant scene, such as snow in bright sunlight, reduce the exposure by 1 f/stop. Are you saying that instead of reducing the exposure by one f/stop, reduce it by 1/2 f/stop instead?

It depends on the film to a degree and I tend to find it easier to lower contrast in a bright zone of snow than make a muddy rendition of it look brighter and snow-like. A film like Tmax 100 is easier to print than Ilford Pan-F in terms of sunny snow scenes.

Had a great day today, shot a few rolls of Acros and TMY-2 in the Hasselblad along with some d*g*t*l using it as well that you can check out here.

Shooting black and white in the snow

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