Shooting and developing with expired plates

[brenjacques]

Hi all,
I posted some months ago regarding the use of expired plates in my recently acquired Houghton Butcher Cameo 1/4 plate camera. After making some repairs to the camera I'm now ready to shoot my first plates with it.

My first attempts will be with a sealed box of Kodak Panchro Press Royal, I'm unsure of the age but I'd presume they date to the late 1960s. Initially I thought they were quite a high speed emulsion as the box is marked P1500, but the paper leaflet inside leads me to believe that they were originally 400iso. I'm planning on shooting them at a low speed, say 2iso just to compensate for the age and loss of sensitivity.

I plan to develop close to the original processing instructions but I have no first hand experience of processing expired stock, I had a local lab sort all of my previous expired stock so I'd like to call upon anyone more experienced who could share some advice before I go ahead. I'm interested to know if the use of an anti-fogging agent will be useful during processing and any other hints and tips to help yield the best results.

I was planning on using Kodak D-76 which is also suggested on the developing instructions, they also state that the use of a hardener during fixing will be beneficial but is this really needed for plates and will I experience rubbing of emulsion should I not use any hardener?

 

[ic-racer]

Good project. How many plates do you have? How many were you thinking of setting aside for testing?

 

[brenjacques]

I currently have one box of 12, not a huge amount but certainly much easier to test than a single roll of film. They look to have been stored well which is encouraging. My initial thought is to just test one as mentioned in my opening thread and see how well it turns out. From that I will think about exposure and processing adjustments as necessary then try a second plate. Hopefully by the third or forth I will have a good idea and can then use the rest without much experimentation.

 

[Donald Qualls]

FWIW, I had good results developing 1950s vintage Verichrome not long ago using a hybrid of D-23 and D-76H (no hydroquinone, and D-23 level of metol, but with D-76 quantity of borax) with two tablets of Kodak Anti-Fog No. 1 (each 30 mg of benzotriazole) in a liter of developer.

By my calculation based on the one stop per decade rule of thumb, however, I'd expect your plates to be closer to EI 6-12 than 2.

It's certainly possible to use the dark slide to make test strip exposures on a single plate to narrow down the effective speed remaining on those plates.

 

[richyd]

I've had some good results from old glass plates and love using them. I have shot mainly Ilford ones but have some Kodak 1/4 plate when I get my Graflex restored.

For the Ilford plates I found speed was down by 3-4 stops but it is hard to get the exact equivalent original ISO. I made a test strip first. Originally I used HC110, supposed to be good for fog, and made a guestimate on developing time which worked out well. With the latest batch of plates there was an information sheet inside for various developers and so tried Microphen which I found even better than HC110.

Good luck, It's great fun. I even got amazing results from some Ilford plates manufactured in 1922 but for those I rated at 1.5 ISO.

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you decide you want to try something reasonably fresh, J. Lane makes new plates in ISO 2(ish) blue-sensitive, and ISO 25 orthochromatic. Our member Nodda Duma. I'm certain he can cut quarter plate, if they aren't already one of his standard sizes.

 

[Jojje]

I've done my share of experimenting and had good results with Ilford HP3 plates from 1942-45, originally ASA200, nowadays 25. At first used some very contrasty developer, like Ilford's own ID-33, but Rodinal 1+25 will do just as well. Thick and heavy plates are easier to load into holders than sheaths with ordinary sheet film. But you really must concentrate and keep in mind which side was the emulsion side...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jojjek/50905832917/in/album-72157720150824524/

 

[Donald Qualls]

But you really must concentrate and keep in mind which side was the emulsion side...

No notches or even clipped corner to keep in upper right?

 

[Jojje]

No notches. Plates are packed in pairs emulsion sides facing each other. Sometimes the antihalation backing feels bore coarse, emulsion side being smooth.

 

[Nodda Duma]

No notches. Plates are packed in pairs emulsion sides facing each other. Sometimes the antihalation backing feels bore coarse, emulsion side being smooth.

I can confirm that. The emulsion always feels smooth. The glass side “grabs” at your fingers.

The emulsion side isn’t as smooth on a microscopic scale, so the stiction (remember that term from science class?) is less when compared to that of the non-emulsion side.

 

[Agulliver]

I've some experience here, having partially restored a quarter plate camera my dad made in the 50s. My initial idea to prove that it still worked was to buy some cheap, expired plates. I got some boxes of Ilford FP3 and some Kodak 1500 I think. It's quite easy to find out the original ASA speed of the Ilford plates as they're labelled with Ilford, Weston and ASA ratings but Kodak seem to have used their own speed rating system. As far as I can tell my boxes are from the 1950s and 60s.

I decided to rate everything at 10ASA to begin with, and shot a couple of the Ilford plates just to see if anything came out. I used my usual ID-11 developer partly because I always have some around and partly because it should get an image out of any emulsion. I didn't have any equipment specifically for processing plates, but I was using ortho plates first time round so waited until it was as dark as possible, unloaded the plates into an orange bucket in my bath tub (think B&Q bucket if you live in England) and added enough developer to swill it around. Swilled around for 7 minutes, dumped the developer, rinsed with water, then added fixer and swilled around for 5 minutes. All times estimated as I couldn't really use a clock with a light or my phone.

And to my amazement, two of the first two plates came out fine. I had a nice portrait of my mother in her back garden. Proof of concept at least.

So my next task was to buy a vintage plate processing tank Mine is plastic and I think branded "Viceroy"...cost me £8 including post so no hardship. I've used it with more of the vintage plates and moved onto J Lane's plates both the 2ASA plates and the "speed plates" at 25ASA. I've achieved some truly lovely photos with those. Mr. Lane is present on these forums as mentioned above, and on social media. very helpful chap and his plates are now distributed to a lot of countries in pretty much all sizes including quarter plate. Not too expensive either considering they're hand made.

With the old plates, there's no notches to help you load them the correct side up. But there may be clues in the packaging, such as Ilford often packing plates in parcels of two with the emulsion sides inwards, ie touching each other. In other words the box may contain 5 or 6 paper wrapepd parcels each of two plates. Mr. Lane's new plates have notches in one corner which is easier for me, but as long as you know the system in use, it's OK.

My advice would be to use a standard B&W developer such as ID-11, D76...nothing fancy. I ended up shooting the expired Ilford plates at 4-5 ASA and I haven't yet experimented with the Kodak 1500 sufficiently to ascertain the sweet spot. But you'll probably get images.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Kodak used ASA for all their professional and consumer films in the 1950s and 1960s. They did change the ratings (due to a national change in the ASA measurement method that doubled the rating for most films) around 1960, but that basically amounted to admitting that the film would produce consumer-acceptable images with half the light previously claimed (this was arrived at with a fairly extensive side by side comparison test, as I recall). If the Kodak 1500 doesn't have ASA, it might have been some sort of scientific plates, whether for astronomy, electron microscopy (new tech in the 1950s), or possibly even industrial X-ray (likely not holography, at least originally, as that wasn't invented until the 1960s). If they're very slow, they might also have been for duplication to lantern slides (which still existed in the 1950s).

 

[grat]

I've got some Kodak "Lightning" Pan Press P1500 plates from the 1940's or 1950's-- but they're made in the UK, and my "best guess" is that they're really 320 speed. That's based purely on finding a reference to "P1600" being a 400 ASA equivalent. The included datasheet is less than helpful, although it includes the directions to mix D-61a and D-167, but the development time for D-167 is 1.5 to 2.5 minutes(!).

Haven't had a chance to test any out, though-- My Graflex RB seems to work well, but the tension knob is very stiff, so I'm guessing a clean and lube is necessary, but that means re-tensioning the shutter curtain.

 

[brenjacques]

Thanks to all for your replies, it all gives me some more confidence to get these plates shot and processed. I have seen the J Lane plates, this is my first foray into using a plate camera so I went with a pack of cheap old plates to start with. Once I get the hang of it all then I will try out the J Lane plates which look to give excellent results.

I have found on the developing sheet inside the box that the speed rating is 200 iso, presumably this is in 'old money' speeds and translates to 400. I have a small plate developing tank on the way and I'm going to order the processing chemicals. I plan to use D-76 for the developer and adox brand fixer. I don't think I'll bother with a stop bath as they should be fairly happy with water.

As for identification of the emulsion side, I have some recent experience of this having recently bought some plate holders for the camera, they still had some plates inside and the backed side is extremely coarse with an almost brush applied effect.

I do also have some Kodak Ortho and Ilford Selo plates but these are 2.5x3.5 size, I'm currently stuck between the idea of making some holders with picture board so they can be used on my quarter plate camera or purchasing another in order to take the different size.

Hopefully next weekend I'll have some time to go out and shoot a few, return home and process them.

 

[MattKing]

I have found on the developing sheet inside the box that the speed rating is 200 iso

If it actually says ISO, that is the current system.
If it says ASA, it will depend on the date of production - before or after 1961. Are there clues on that sheet about the date?

 

[brenjacques]

Hi Matt, my mistake it does read as ASA on the sheet. There are no indications of manufacture/print date on the sheet but the reference of it being a really fast speed and only 200 ASA leads me to think that these was made before the ASA value change.

Cheers
Bren

 

[StevieB]

You might consider two things when doing your tests. First use your dark slide and partially cover your lens for multiple exposures on the same plate so you have a "test strip" on your plate. Second you might ditch D76 and get something like a Universal Developer that was used for Prints Plates and Film ( PPF ) like Ansco 125. You don't want to let your expired plates linger in your developer for long, it will be susceptible to fog so a strong Dilution like 1:3 for 3 minutes might be worth trying.

 

[grat]

For the OP, any progress?

I'm very interested, because I have this box of P1500 Kodak "Lightning" press pan plates... as they're made in the UK, I'm speculating that they might be the same as the Kodak Royal Press Pan in the US, only renamed because the UK would have taken the term "Royal" more seriously in the 1940's. Supposedly, these plates have been in "cool, dry storage" since 1950. Entirely possible.

I'm more interested this week than I was last, because now I've got one of my 1/4 plate cameras ready to take photos.

The problem is, the data sheet only lists times for D-61a and D-167 (along with the recipes). Doesn't even list speed. So I have an unknown emulsion, with times for an unused developer, which makes it tough to translate to "modern" developers.

The D-61a time is 4-6 minutes @ 65℉ with 1:1 for tray development, and 7-10 minutes @ 65℉ with 1:3 dilution for tank development. I think I'll stay away from D-167, as the recommended time is 1½ to 2½ minutes (@ 65℉).

I'd actually like to try FA-1027 with at least one plate, since it has benzotriazole already in the recipe, and those who've used FA-1027 seem generally positive-- but I have no idea if this is a good idea or a truly horrible one, but I don't even have a starting ballpark for development time.

I do know someone with a night vision scope, so perhaps it's worth trying to develop by inspection.

 

[brenjacques]

Hi Grat, well yes and no. It was frankly an absolute disaster when I opened the plates. They'd obviously been in a damp place that wasn't at all evident from the packaging and the emulsion was peeling from the glass. I have just bought a box of Lightning Pan Press from presumably the same supplier as yours and they are in good order. The info sheet inside gives the same info as yours and this is almost exact to the info given on the Royal Pan Press, except this also gives development time for D-76 being 11-13 minutes.

Just note even on the Royal Pan plate info it gives D61a (1:1) 5 minutes @ 68f and 1:3 6-8 minutes so I doubt the emulsions are much different.

I plan to shoot some of these plates over the next week and see how they turn out. It seems as though 12-15 minutes in D76 is standard for most B&W emulsions especially around this age so that's what I'm likely to do them at. If they turn out well enough then I'll be buying more.

 

[Agulliver]

12 minutes in ID-11 or D-76 sounds good.

I started out using 7 minutes in ID-11 on the grounds that pretty much any photographic emulsion will yield *something* in those circumstances. I've found that with both J Lane's new plates and the vintage ones, if using ID-11 (or D-76) a few minutes longer is needed. It's not the ideal developer at all for glass plates but it does work.

 

[brenjacques]

Thanks Agulliver, it's always a bit of guess work with anything of this age. These particular plates are probably 70 years old now and no way will they work as originally intended. I developed a roll of Ilford HP3 from 1959 that I shot recently and that turned out fine in D-76 for 14 minutes @ 20°c. If anything I may do the Lighting pan plates at 18°c rather than 20 just because all temperatures are given at 18°c on the sheet supplied. I doubt anything bad will happen at 20°c but I do question why they went up 2°c by the time they were releasing Royal Parchro plates.

 

[grat]

Thanks! Glad to have some confirmation. Kinda difficult to expose or develop when you have no idea what the emulsion is.

I opened a box and pulled out the data sheet, but left the plates in place-- the data sheet is remarkably clean, so I'm hoping the plates are as well.

I suspect the UK used 65℉ instead of 68℉ because it's colder in the UK. I do most of my developing at home @ 75℉, simply because that's "room temperature" for me.

 

[Pieter12]

Just don't get pulled over by a state trooper.

 

[brenjacques]

Well here's a late night update from me, I shot two of these plates today just to see if they were up to much good. I've just finished processing them and to my amazement they have turned out to be absolutely spot on.

I rated them at 3 ISO so definitely not for anything that moves quickly! I'm quite amazed after 70 years how well the emulsion has held up. I've only viewed one close up, a portrait I took of a family member but there was very little (if any) fogging and the contrast looks to be fine. Frankly, I'd expect this quality from any I'd buy fresh.

Once they're dried then I'll make up a photo of one and post on here, the quality won't be great as for now I can only use my phone but it will prove a point.

Grat, I developed these in D-76 for 15 minutes at 18°c (as was room temp at the time). Get some loaded up and give them a go, hopefully they will come out just as good.

 

[grat]

Glad to hear it! Look forward to seeing your results.

Now I've got to find out how accurate my shutter is on a 100+ year old falling plate camera.......