Shipping Chemistry In Cold Weather

dynachrome · Dec 7, 2020

I would like to order some Clayton F76 Plus or the similar/equivalent Arista stock from Freestyle. The temperature in my are will dip to 32F tonight. Do I have to worry that these liquids will freeze on their way to me and make them unusable?

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2020

dynachrome said:
I would like to order some Clayton F76 Plus or the similar/equivalent Arista stock from Freestyle. The temperature in my are will dip to 32F tonight. Do I have to worry that these liquids will freeze on their way to me and make them unusable?

Probably not. The chemicals are mixtures of salts which disassociate into ions. The presents of ion reduces the freeze point. Since both these chemicals have heavy concentrations of ions, the freezing point is very probably well below the temperatures they will be exposed to. Your chemicals are very likely safe.

Alan9940 · Dec 7, 2020

When I lived in Vermont, I had some liquid chemistry shipped to me from B&H during the winter months and I never had any issues with anything freezing. As a matter of fact, the only issue I've ever had any place I've lived is when ordering some Sprint Fixer Remover during the colder months; it arrived with some fairly large chunks of crystals at the bottom of the container. Anyway, I think you'll be fine.

osella · Dec 8, 2020

I’ve never had any issues with chemistry freezing in the winter. I actually prefer to buy in the winter as I know any film I order won’t encounter any overly hot conditions. I couldn’t find any data on the freezing point for any developers, but it’s likely well below the freezing point of plain water.

GLS · Dec 8, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
The chemicals are mixtures of salts which disassociate into ions. The presents of ion reduces the freeze point. Since both these chemicals have heavy concentrations of ions, the freezing point is very probably well below the temperatures they will be exposed to. Your chemicals are very likely safe.

This is rather too simplistic. For starters not all developer ingredients are salts. Secondly, whilst it's generally true that dissolved substances will lower the freezing point of water, the bigger potential issue is precipitation of the ingredients due to lowering of the water's saturation point as it cools.

Having said that, it is likely that any such precipitation is reversible once the mixture is warmed up again. I imagine also that most commercial developers have been designed to tolerate a range of storage temperatures without such things becoming an issue.

In conclusion then, not something to worry about.

MattKing · Dec 8, 2020

It is something that the manufacturers need to deal with. From the Kodak Alaris website:
"Update: HC-110 precipitate; August 14, 2020

We’ve had reports of precipitate forming in the bottom of unopened bottles of HC-110 developer
Our investigation has shown that crystals form with freezing. As a result, our supplier is making minor change to make the formulation more robust to cold temperatures. Testing indicates this will resolve the issue.
New / improved batches will begin shipping by the end of August
If you have additional questions, please contact ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com "
In these days where volumes are relatively low, and at least some shipping is by air, I expect that this is a concern even in the warmer months.

Sirius Glass · Dec 8, 2020

GLS said:
This is rather too simplistic. For starters not all developer ingredients are salts. Secondly, whilst it's generally true that dissolved substances will lower the freezing point of water, the bigger potential issue is precipitation of the ingredients due to lowering of the water's saturation point as it cools.

Having said that, it is likely that any such precipitation is reversible once the mixture is warmed up again. I imagine also that most commercial developers have been designed to tolerate a range of storage temperatures without such things becoming an issue.

In conclusion then, not something to worry about.

It does not all need to be salts. Any concentration of salt will ionize and lower the freezing point. It is only a question of how much. My post is still coorect.

GLS · Dec 8, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
It does not all need to be salts. Any concentration of salt will ionize and lower the freezing point. It is only a question of how much. My post is still coorect.

I was responding to your statement that "the chemicals are mixtures of salts", which isn't entirely accurate, and also to make the point that solute precipitation is the significant risk, not so much freezing of the solution. MattKing's subsequent post illustrates this.

mshchem · Dec 8, 2020

I'm wary of buying liquids in really cold weather. 0° C not to concerned, 0°F too cold. I buy film during colder months, liquid chemistry when it won't be exposed to really cold temperatures. UPS usually parks delivery vans inside out of the brutal cold.

koraks · Dec 9, 2020

GLS said:
Having said that, it is likely that any such precipitation is reversible once the mixture is warmed up again.

Not necessarily. I've had precipitates formed in e.g. RA4 developer concentrate that would not redissolve anymore, no matter what. Sometimes, if stuff drops out of solution, it's irreversible. Why? I don't know; you'd say that it should be, but in practice, it isn't always the case. Very low temperatures during shipping of chemicals *are* a valid concern. It'll turn out OK in 99% of the cases, but it's kind of annoying if you hit upon that 1%.

bdial · Dec 9, 2020

I’ve not had a problem with my winter orders of chemistry. But if the box may sit on your doorstep for several hours in very cold weather , you may want to see if you can ship it to your work, or have it held at the shipper’s facility for pick-up.
Once when i expected a box and wasn’t going to be home, i left a note asking the delivery person to leave it behind the storm door, which they did. That was a below-zero (F) day.

GLS · Dec 9, 2020

koraks said:
Not necessarily. I've had precipitates formed in e.g. RA4 developer concentrate that would not redissolve anymore, no matter what

Yep, this can happen. It isn't typical behaviour though, hence my "likely" comment.

koraks · Dec 10, 2020

Yes, I agree. It's unlikely to go wrong - just annoying when it does. Btw, it wouldn't be sufficient reason for me to delay chemistry orders until spring.

AgX · Dec 10, 2020

mshchem said:
UPS usually parks delivery vans inside out of the brutal cold.

Where I live there are mild winters, but I still remember nights of -10C°. And I do not know of respective indoor parkings.

grainyvision · Dec 13, 2020

Definitely precipitate risk, but freezing (and potential bursting) of the solution is pretty unlikely due to the salts present, and plus many commercial developers supplied in liquid form include alcohols, specifically glycols, which can reduce the freezing point of solutions to very well below zero. Ethylene and diethylene glycol will be listed on the MSDS, but the non-toxic propylene glycol will not be. Glycols can make certain things more soluble as well (especially hydroquinone)

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