Share the collective wisdom of this group?

nsurit · Feb 19, 2007

Approaching the age at which I will retire, I find myself in the fortunate position of building a home to suit my needs for the first time. I've lived in a number of homes over the years, however this will be the first of which I've had any say in the design. This home will contain my first B&W wet darkroom. I've had access to a number of darkrooms over the years, however this will be my first and probably my last.

Although my budget for the project will not be limitless, it will also not be shoe string. I've done a bit of hunting and gathering and have some of the equipment I will want.

My question to the forum is, "Would the members of this forum be willing to share their collective wisdom is helping to design a black and white darkroom?"

I've looked at many of the setups in the darkroom portrait section and see things that make sense to me and that I would like to include.

If there is some general interest in this project, I could share some more specific information about room size and equipment and what I see as being necessary (which may or may not be). I will actually have two areas. The darkroom and a production room, used more for mating, framing, etc and it will also house my computer and will be a combination production room and office. Hmm, that is what I'm retiring from. Oh, well.

Anybody want to play? <[8^) Bill Barber

resummerfield · Feb 19, 2007

Physical structure: Design a room with a high ceiling8 feet is a little low. I have a sloping ceiling, part of a cathedral roof line, and the 10 foot+ area is great for large prints or a floor standing enlarger. Also consider 2 doors into the darkroom, so you can enter and exit without letting light into the room (for open tray standing development).

Electrical requirements: I have multiple 120 volt and 240 volt power circuits, each on a switch that I can turn off when leaving the room (so I know nothing is on when Im not there). Lights are on 4 separate switches, and some also run through individual foot switches. Install twice as many outlets as you think you will need. I wish I had more.

Water requirements: Hot and cold filtered water, of course, and an automatic temp spigot (Hass). My sink is 9 feet long x 30-inches high (the bottom) x 32-inches deep. Consider raising the bottom of the sink to a comfortable working height. I wish mine was about 38 to 40-inches at the bottom. I have a stainless steel sink, but if I could do it again, I would build one from plywood and fiberglass it.

Ventilation requirements: Mount an external vent fan, ducted to vent the air over the sink (my sink back splash is a plenum for the exhaust air). The make-up air should come from the opposite side of the room, and be filtered. My blower is a 900 cfm model, wired through a rheostat to vary the ventilation with the need.

Also consider: Filtered high-pressure air line (from a compressor not in the room), and a vacuum outlet (if the house has a central vac system) that is on a foot-switch operated. I hit the vacuum and shoot a little air to clean negs just prior to inserting into the enlarger, and the vac is a good source for a vacuum easel. And of course, lots and lots of counter space and drawers and cabinets.

The nicest darkroom Ive seen is my neighbor's, which is about 15 x 20 feet, with the sink mounted in the middle with a nice vent hood. There is no such thing as too big a darkroom.

jd callow · Feb 20, 2007

I have only built one darkroom, but that won't keep me from giving up my 2c.
My advice and what I did was to write a recipe for each darkroom process. On paper draw a diagram depicting each event. It should include space for everything you need to complete the process. Mine was fairly easy as my darkroom was for colour, but easy access to the processing machines, drier wash tubes, easels etc.. can be demanding and I still screwed it up. If I were doing a B&W darkroom I think I might have my print dev through wash be circular returning me back to my enlarger (I like big prints so I envision three sinks set two parallel back to back and one set across the end. like this: =|). Film processing would be a triangle with a corner each for souping, washing and drying (with sleeving done on light box on the dry side).

David H. Bebbington · Feb 20, 2007

Good advice in previous posts - I would just add that the 1942 edition of the Ilford Manual of Photography (but not later ones, for some reason) has a 15-page chapter on how to build a darkroom. Some things have changed in 65 years, others have not. If you are at all interested, PM me your postal address and I will send you a photocopy.

Regards,

David

Bob Carnie · Feb 20, 2007

Bill
I have built many darkrooms in my career and I too am planning a home darkroom in the not so distant future. If you want send me the specs as well as equipment you have and what you need , Also where you are located would be helpful re climate conditions I would happy to look at the future darkroom and give you my two cents.
My first thought would be to consider the floor , walls, venting, drainage, then move into the power and plumbing.
You should have a good plan established for chemical recovery even before you start.
These items are critical first as once you start printing you will not want to think about them again.

Jim Jones · Feb 20, 2007

I've built or improvised six darkrooms for myself and one for a friend over many years. None were nearly as elegant as Eric's, but they limited the quality of the prints much less than my abilities as photographer and printer. Only the present one has a long sink. One of the most productive darkrooms, in an outbuilding, had walking water, not running water. I walked in with milk jugs of water, and walked out with buckets of waste. It also had only a 7 foot high ceiling, so the 5x7 Elwood sat on the floor. I'd be using that darkroom yet if it hadn't burned down 20 years ago. Julia Margaret Cameron didn't have a darkroom nearly that nice, and she did great photography.

With the luxury of designing and building specifically for photography, you can improve slightly on productivity and greatly on convenience over improvised darkrooms. Eric is right about electrical outlets. The dozen in my small darkroom aren't enough. Do use GFCI protection. Your electrical code probably requires them. Switch controlled ceiling outlets are nice for safelights. A dimmer on incandescent bulb safelight circuits is nice for long exposure times. Consider filtering all water coming into the darkroom, and using a small under-sink water heater. Also, a vacuum breaker on the water supply to the sink may be required. Blowing filtered air into the darkroom and letting it vent from over the sink blocks dirty air from other sources. Don't rely on the home heating and air conditioning. Thermostaticsally controlled cooling and electrical darkroom heating help maintain a working temperature for stored chemicals. Regardless of how many shelves and cabinets you install, you can run out of storage space. My enlarger baseboard is 29 inches from the floor so I can work sitting down. Some others prefer standing at the enlarger. A wall mounted enlarger permits big enlargements on the floor. Much information on building darkrooms is available. Rather than rely too much on them, analyze just what you want to do, and how to do it. Plan your darkroom around your needs, not what works for others.

Steve Smith · Feb 20, 2007

Jim Jones said:
Julia Margaret Cameron didn't have a darkroom nearly that nice, and she did great photography.

Perhaps not but it was in a really nice house which is now the Julia Margaret Cameron Museum http://www.dimbola.co.uk/content/view/13/27/

Baxter Bradford is having an exhibition there next month.

But back to the subject....

I built my darkroom in the roofspace of my house which seemed like a good idea at the time. It's a bit of a pain using it though as I have to open the loft hatch, extend the ladder, climb up, pull up the ladder and close the hatch.
I would rather have somewhere with just a door but since it's the only space I have, it's much better than nothing.

Steve.

photographs42 · Feb 20, 2007

I’ll play. I happen to be an Architect and a LF black & white photographer.

It seams a little odd to me that people (all well meaning of course) are throwing out advice without knowing very much about what you have or want in the way of equipment or what size and type of prints you want to make.

Give us more information about:
1. What you want to produce.
2. What equipment you have or want to get.
3. What your starting point is with the house plan.

Then we can give meaningful advice.
Jerome

Nick Zentena · Feb 20, 2007

resummerfield said:
Physical structure: Design a room with a high ceiling8 feet is a little low. I have a sloping ceiling, part of a cathedral roof line, and the 10 foot+ area is great for large prints or a floor standing enlarger.

My Beseler is so high that 8 feet means having it sit on a very low bench. I'm not even sure 10' would be quite enough but it sure would be less painful then 8 feet.

MattKing · Feb 20, 2007

I'd suggest an exercise.

Measure what you have and what you expect to get, and then, on paper or computer, try to design the smallest darkroom you can get away with.

Step away from that design for a few days, and then go back to it, with an eye toward determining what changes you would make to make it better, if you had more space and could put larger work areas or fixtures in it, as well as more electrical outlets, lights, water sources etc..

Matt

Roger Hicks · Feb 20, 2007

Dear Bill,

There's quite a bit in the free module 'Our Darkrooms' in the Photo School at www.rogerandfrances.com. I've had temporary darkrooms since 1966 and full-time ones (on and off) since 1969 or thereabouts, in Bermuda, England, Scotland, California and France. I still don't have all the answers but I can tell you something about what to avoid, including darkrooms that are too big as well as ones that are too small.

Cheers,

R.

David H. Bebbington · Feb 20, 2007

photographs42 said:
Ill play. I happen to be an Architect and a LF black & white photographer.

It seams a little odd to me that people (all well meaning of course) are throwing out advice without knowing very much about what you have or want in the way of equipment or what size and type of prints you want to make.

Give us more information about:
1. What you want to produce.
2. What equipment you have or want to get.
3. What your starting point is with the house plan.

Then we can give meaningful advice.
Jerome

Actually, darkroom design is a matter of principles (workflow, ventilation, etc.). All sample designs are essentially scalable - if you are sure you will never want to make a print larger than 8x10" (which is very unlikely), you can obviously make your darkroom smaller than if you want to handle 20x24" or larger.

Regards,

David

Black Dog · Feb 20, 2007

You can never have too much sink space, too many shelves or too much countertop space on the dry side.

photographs42 · Feb 21, 2007

David H. Bebbington said:
Actually, darkroom design is a matter of principles (workflow, ventilation, etc.). All sample designs are essentially scalable - if you are sure you will never want to make a print larger than 8x10" (which is very unlikely), you can obviously make your darkroom smaller than if you want to handle 20x24" or larger.

Regards,

David

Actually, darkroom design is a matter of principles (workflow, ventilation, etc.). :confused: I dont know what that means.

Bill is asking for advice to make his future darkroom as good as it can be. FOR HIM. He has offered to provide more information if people are interested. The collective advice given so far isnt necessarily bad, but it isnt necessarily relevant either. Designing a darkroom, like designing a house or an office building, should start with the parameters of how it will be used. Most of us live in houses and work in darkrooms not tailored to our specific needs and we make do. Bill has the luxury of building to suit his needs and desires. I (as well as others here) can help, but only if we know what HIS needs and desires are.

Speaking of larger prints for example, I print up to 30x40. I use Ilford MGFB in rolls 42 x 100. I need a place to store the roll, cut sheets to size, process, dry and store the finished prints. Bill probably doesnt need that.or maybe he does! If he does, I have some good ideas he can use.

Jerome

resummerfield · Feb 21, 2007

photographs42 said:
.....Designing a darkroom, like designing a house or an office building, should start with the parameters of how it will be used. Most of us live in houses and work in darkrooms not tailored to our specific needs and we make do. Bill has the luxury of building to suit his needs and desires. I (as well as others here) can help, but only if we know what HIS needs and desires are......

I agree with you completely. But the builder should realize that regardless of how well his planning is, his needs today may change tomorrow. With equipment prices low, and getting lower, that large piece of professional equipment may end up in a home darkroom. I designed and refined the design of my darkroom years prior to construction. And in 6 years I've remodeled it twice, by adding cabinetry and electrical outlets. A flexible design, with access to mechanicals and as much physical room for expansion as possible, would be my recommendation.

photographs42 · Feb 21, 2007

resummerfield said:
I agree with you completely. But the builder should realize that regardless of how well his planning is, his needs today may change tomorrow. With equipment prices low, and getting lower, that large piece of professional equipment may end up in a home darkroom. I designed and refined the design of my darkroom years prior to construction. And in 6 years I've remodeled it twice, by adding cabinetry and electrical outlets. A flexible design, with access to mechanicals and as much physical room for expansion as possible, would be my recommendation.

I agree. It is always a good idea to plan for the what ifs, within limits, of course. Some things are simple like electrical outlets and faucets but other things cant be so easily planned or projected. Fortunately, darkroom technology isnt changing much any more so planning for future needs is relatively simple. A good plan incorporates the reasonable what ifs without the expense of the probably wont happen.

Some here have said things like You cant have too much this or that. But thats not true. A darkroom is kind of like a kitchen. You need enough space, cabinets, countertop, etc. but too much is a hindrance. If you have to walk eight or ten steps from the refrigerator to the sink, for instance, thats not good.

Jerome

David H. Bebbington · Feb 21, 2007

photographs42 said:
Actually, darkroom design is a matter of principles (workflow, ventilation, etc.). :confused: I dont know what that means.

Bill is asking for advice to make his future darkroom as good as it can be. FOR HIM. He has offered to provide more information if people are interested. The collective advice given so far isnt necessarily bad, but it isnt necessarily relevant either. ...

What's difficult about the concept of workflow? It simply means the way that a given person works, in terms of types and sizes of materials and personal preferences and therefore of the way a workspace (in this case, a darkroom) needs to be in order to accommodate this. As I understand it, Bill is asking for advice on how HE can make his darkroom fit his needs as well as possible, he is after all the person who knows best, and I have therefore attempted to offer him some information to help HIM decide. I wouldn't attempt to tell him HOW to build his darkroom unless I knew his photographic needs both for now and for the foreseeable future and also had detailed plans of his home and professional-level knowledge of the building code in the town where he lives. I don't have this information. but he does, so no problem!

You may be horrified at the idea of a darkroom user planning his own darkroom without hiring a costly professional, my heart bleeds for you! I presume this is why you are trying to dismiss those who have offered advice as well-meaning dolts. As it happens, I am a trained professional photographer, have been taking pictures for over 50 years and have planned numerous darkrooms both for private and professional use.

Just in closing, the reason why I emphasized ventilation was that, based on my experience, this is the easiest thing to forget when setting up a darkoom but an absolutely crucial factor in making a darkroom a safe and comfortable place to work. And finally - the book chapter of which I have sent a copy to Bill shows 3 examples, ranging from a temporary work surface which can be placed over a bath, through to a small professional darkroom around 8 feet square and on to a large professional set-up. These illustrate very well the spectrum of possiblities, not as models for slavish imitation but as examples of how form follows function, in darkrooms as elsewhere.

Regards,

David

firecracker · Feb 21, 2007

When I built my current darkroom (well, I didn't really build the whole thing), in the beginning when I was sort of clueless about how to utilize the given space, which was an empty room with a ceiling fan and a florecent light on, I started to put a few things first with an enlarger and trays, and played with them for a little while in the dark. Without much of the complete facility that I was used to before, it didn't feel anywhere near a real darkroom. So, I kept changing the layout and so on, and at some time later, when I turned the light off as usual, it felt like it. Then I went to start building the sink, table, drying rack, etc. It's all DIY with 2x4s and plywood, so I could and still can always change if necessary.

I hired someone to drop the water line because I didn't know how to do it into a room that previously had none, but that's only thing I asked a professional to do the job.

photographs42 · Feb 23, 2007

David H. Bebbington said:
What's difficult about the concept of workflow? It simply means the way that a given person works, in terms of types and sizes of materials and personal preferences and therefore of the way a workspace (in this case, a darkroom) needs to be in order to accommodate this. ................

You may be horrified at the idea of a darkroom user planning his own darkroom without hiring a costly professional, my heart bleeds for you! I presume this is why you are trying to dismiss those who have offered advice as well-meaning dolts. ..............

Regards,

David

David,
I dont know why this seams to be turning into an argument between us because that wasnt/isnt my intent. If I have offended you Im sorry.

The part I didnt understand is the phrase Darkroom design is a matter of principles. I still dont but its not that important. I understand workflow and ventilation. For the record, I have never suggested anything about hiring a costly professional and I dont believe I called anyone a dolt. I did offer to help Bill if he wants my help but I certainly dont expect him to pay me.
Peace,
Jerome

David H. Bebbington · Feb 23, 2007

photographs42 said:
Peace,
Jerome

Likewise!

Regards,

David

David H. Bebbington · Feb 23, 2007

photographs42 said:
The part I didnt understand is the phrase Darkroom design is a matter of principles. I still dont but its not that important. QUOTE]

Maybe I expressed this badly, perhaps I could have one more brief try at explaining myself. The general idea ("principle") of a darkroom is to have adequate supplies of what you need (electricity, hot and cold water, drainage, ventilation, possibly air conditioning) to operate the processes that you want to operate (slight complication in that most enthusiasts will have just one darkroom for both film and printing, the professional approach is usually separate rooms). The answer to this need is generally expressed in the concept of a dry bench (for enlarger and other printing equipment, possibly also handling film prior to exposure (sheets) or development (loading tanks/hangers)) and a wet bench for processing.

Each "bench" will be scaled up or down or modified according to the user's tastes and needs - for example, if you have a floor-standing 8x10" enlarger, you may well make the dry bench shorter so that you can fit the enlarger in (although not too small if you are loading 8x10" filmholders on the same bench!). If you are making big prints. say 20x24", in trays, you will need a huge wet bench, which may not even be a bench at all but a giant sink/water bath. If it is, check the strength of the floor! If you have a table-top processing machine, you will need a big bench, nominally "wet" but in fact dry because of the electrics in the machine but spillage-tolerant), whereas if you have slot processors, the length can be much less. It can be much less again if you have a floor-standing processing machine, in which case the wet bench may be used only to process rollfilm for a tank - for a tray used as water jacket and a dish warmer, 3 feet of bench space may be fine. In this day and age, you may want to have a directional control valve on the sink waste pipe so that you can dump big trays of chemicals into the sink and run these into hazchem containers instead of down the drain!

The "principles" are the same in every case, enough room in safety for your chosen processes, with wet-process workflow nearly always starting at the furthest point from the sink and leading to this, and with secure control of water flow (good overflow facilities, measures to minimise/eliminate spillage, moppable floor for accidents). Almost always there will be some kind of wet and dry benches, the actual size and form of these will vary enormously, as will the arrangements underneath to use this space to store water-tolerant equipment (wet bench) and dry materials, film and paper (dry bench, with this function possibly provided by a refrigerator). It is this principle of "enough room in safety for your chosen processes" which is vital, everything else is negotiable!

Regards,

David

nsurit · Mar 2, 2007

My most humble apology for disappearing

There is no excuse for putting a question out to the forum and then disappearing. It was a good example of poor planning and poor etiquette. Before I do it again, let me say that I'm going to post some information and then be away until Sunday afternoon and then should be available for a good while.

Darkroom to be 8' X 14' with 9' ceiling. Door (either revolving or double light trap) on one of the long walls. Floors to be either concrete or something over concrete.

General concept is to have dark room and a separate production room where I will have the dry mount press, mat cutting, framing, etc. This also is where I would probably have my drying frames. I would like to be able to make relatively large prints, without needing to use an enlarger projecting on a wall, so I may wall mount the enlarger, but just use to the floor if that were needed. I've seen some set ups where there is an adjustable shelf upon which you place your easel. Looked pretty good.

I currently work in formats, ranging from 1/2 frame 35mm to 6X17 (which my enlarger will not handle.) The largest I anticipate doing with the enlarger I have now is 4X5. The darkroom will be used only for B&W.

The equipment list (other than trays, graduates, bottles,easels etc,) at this consists of:

Beseler 45V-XL with lenses for up to 4X5.

Thomas safe light

11X14 archival washer and same for film washer.

Water will probably be supplied from a filtered rainwater collection system, although I could use well water. The well water would be at 72 degrees and very hard, so would require filtration. The rainwater will be coming from a very large tank (20,000 gallons or so) and likely would not reguire much, if any alteration of the temperature.

I will need some type of silver recovery system (I think) as I will be on a septic system.

Would like a very long sink on one side and also a film drying cabinet. I'm thinking it might be better to have the drying cabinet in the production area.

I would probably prefer to have a "store bought" sink and would be open to suggesting on those or perhaps on even something built out of plywood and fiberglass, but given that I will not be doing the construction, I doubt that it will be any cheaper than "store bought." I'd love to find something used, as used is good. It allows for recyling and save me some bucks.

So this is a better start. What questions and/or suggestions might you have?

Thank you and again, please accept my apology for disappearing. Bill Barber

photographs42 · Mar 2, 2007

Welcome back Bill. I was wondering what happened to you.

A few thoughts:
1. The 9’ ceiling is good. 8’x14’ is OK but consider widening it to 9’. While a 24” dry side counter is pretty common, 30” is better. On the wet side, I would suggest a 30” deep (front to back) sink. Unless you use wall mount faucets, you will need counter or shelf space for the faucets so the sink side can be around 36” front to wall. In an 8’ space that leaves only 30” between, which I think is a little tight.
2. I have a 30”x10’ S.S. sink. If I were doing it again I would build the sink from marine plywood with epoxy paint coating.
3. You indicate that you would like to be able to make “relatively large prints”. How large is that? Large to me would be at least 16x20 or 20x24. While your current print washer is 11x14 I would plan for a 20x24 in the future. I do 20x24 in trays and my 10’ sink is as small as I would recommend if you plan on going that big. I can print up to 30”x40” but I switch to a tube for anything over 20x24.
4. Mounting the enlarger on the wall has its advantages and some possible disadvantages. I believe the 45V-XL has a pretty long column so it might not be a problem but if you mount the enlarger too high, you may not be able to bring it low enough to make small prints. Do some testing before you decide on a mounting height. An adjustable height table might help in that regard. Just remember that if you do this, you will be doing dodging and burning with obstruction on both sides when the table is lowered.
5. Something you might consider is a second small enlarger for your small format work. A used 23C is pretty cheap.
6. I’ve never used or felt the need for a drying cabinet but it seams to me that if you have one you would want it in the darkroom so you don’t have to carry the wet film into the relatively unclean next room. Even if the next room is spotless, it would seam awfully unhandy to me.
7. There is plenty of information about darkroom waste and septic systems. I assume you have or will do your homework. Upsetting the chemical balance of a septic system is something you don’t want to do.

More later.
Jerome

Share the collective wisdom of this group?

nsurit

resummerfield

jd callow

Moderator

David H. Bebbington

Bob Carnie

Jim Jones

Steve Smith

photographs42

Nick Zentena

MattKing

Moderator

Roger Hicks

David H. Bebbington

Black Dog

photographs42

resummerfield

photographs42

David H. Bebbington

firecracker

photographs42

David H. Bebbington

David H. Bebbington

nsurit

photographs42

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