Shaken, Not Stirred

Bill Burk · May 23, 2014

I was sitting in my comfortable chair reading Todd-Zakia Photographic Sensitometry tonight, and re-read the part where the purpose of agitation is described as it relates to standard processing for sensitometric testing.

To paraphrase...

Agitation has nothing directly to do with the diffusion that takes developer into the emulsion and byproducts out of the emulsion. But it does maintain the quality of the thin layer of developer immediately next to the film. The problem of agitation is that a thin layer of developer is adsorbed to the surface of the film and held by an appreciable force.

To remove this adsorbed layer requires vigorous agitation and considerable effort.

As I looked over this thread, most comments minimized the importance of agitation. If you are practicing stand processing or divided development, then deliberately less agitation is the idea. But most of the time, I'd think vigorous agitation would be the best plan.

Bill Burk · May 23, 2014

Now a Martini, on the other hand, should definitely be processed by stand.

Rhodes · May 23, 2014

Bill Burk said:
Now a Martini, on the other hand, should definitely be processed by stand.

When reading this, I just thought of a bar using (a new) CPE with lift to mix the cocktails and the bartender lifting up and puring the beverage througt the hose to the glass!

yulia_s_rey · May 23, 2014

MartinP said:
The Paterson Super System-4 tanks (with the full width "Tupperware" style lids) don't leak in my experience when the lids are "farted" like a sandwich box, but the older System-4 ones are by now pretty ancient and the soft old fashioned plastics of the lid-seals are usually no longer soft and they probably drip or dribble a bit.

Yeah mine's gotta to be pretty old. Perhaps time to look into buying a new tank once I can scrounge enough $$$. A pleasure to use the reels though.

Ghostman · May 23, 2014

Twist and turn.

Arvee · May 23, 2014

For those of you martini lovers, a good bartender friend of mine introduced me to a version of the martini that embraces all the fine qualities of the traditional martini with a new level of smoothness. Called Sapphire and Smoke; Sapphire gin (with all those subtle herbal flavors) and instead of vermouth, a dash of Chivas or other good scotch, will take the bite out of the libation. I tried it and it is indeed a very pleasant diversion from the traditional martini.

kintatsu · May 23, 2014

Snapshot said:
No, I am not talking about a vodka martini (it should be gin and vermouth anyway)...

Never liked Gin. I prefer a Manhattan. Gotta' be sweet and icy with 2 cherries. Goes well with a nice pipe or cigar.

Sirius Glass · May 23, 2014

A real Martini is a Gin Martini stirred not shaken. Ian Flemming has ruined the Martini by screwing up two ways, however in one of his James Bond books he did have James Bond say "stirred not shaken".

pentaxuser · May 23, 2014

What I like about APUG is that we can reach a conclusion on Martini quicker than we can do the same about shaking or stirring photographic developer

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · May 23, 2014

pentaxuser said:
What I like about APUG is that we can reach a conclusion on Martini quicker than we can do the same about shaking or stirring photographic developer

pentaxuser

We all have our priorities. :munch::munch::munch::munch::munch:

yulia_s_rey · May 23, 2014

Bill Burk · May 23, 2014

For the Martini, stand for 16 minutes is too long... ice melts too much and waters it down.

So now I'll try another batch 7 minutes in fresh cracked ice.

Black Dog · May 24, 2014

Scientific testing is crucial!

Sirius Glass · May 24, 2014

Bill Burk said:
For the Martini, stand for 16 minutes is too long... ice melts too much and waters it down.

So now I'll try another batch 7 minutes in fresh cracked ice.

No there is a much better way ==> keep the Gin in the freezer. It will not freeze. That way you will not poison the Martini with ice and the drink will stay cold for much longer. Just stir and throw away the shaker.

Sirius Glass · May 24, 2014

People at APUG may argue about developers and dilutions until they are deluded, but one can learn to make a truly great Martini at APUG!

Jaf-Photo · May 24, 2014

Snapshot said:
No, I am not talking about a vodka martini (it should be gin and vermouth anyway) but do people advocate inversions or stirring for B&W development agitation. I have always stirred/swished my developer rather with the tank twist rod than inverting/shaking the tank, with the thinking being that I do not have the film partially out of the developer for the moment it is inverted and to reduce foaming or frothing that may occur.

Anyone care to share their thoughts?

I usually start by twirling my Paterson rod as soon as I have poured the chems in. This way the whole film will be soaked evenly and development/stop/fix will begin uniformly. Then after the first 30s, I remove the rod, put the lid on and do slow inversions for the remainder.

GRHazelton · May 24, 2014

Fred Aspen said:
For those of you martini lovers, a good bartender friend of mine introduced me to a version of the martini that embraces all the fine qualities of the traditional martini with a new level of smoothness. Called Sapphire and Smoke; Sapphire gin (with all those subtle herbal flavors) and instead of vermouth, a dash of Chivas or other good scotch, will take the bite out of the libation. I tried it and it is indeed a very pleasant diversion from the traditional martini.

Now even as a purist I'd be willing to try that. Like Hendrick's, Sapphire is far above my usual gin, Burnett's, but the cost.... What is a "dash"? Would a single malt improve the drink, or is a decent blend scotch okay? Inquiring minds want to know. BTW, let's not take TOO much "bite" away!

winger · May 24, 2014

I may have to go out and buy some gin and vermouth soon if you keep writing about martinis. mmmm

I used the twirly stick for a few rolls several years ago and discovered that I got overdeveloped edges. I switched to inversions (continuously for the first 30 seconds and then about 4 every 30 seconds after that) and have no more problems. That first 30 seconds is important, too. I forgot it once and had slightly more developed edges.

Bill Burk · May 24, 2014

winger said:
I may have to go out and buy some gin and vermouth soon if you keep writing about martinis. mmmm.

The second one can be a half-measure... Like when developing film, you can start with two rolls, then finish off with one more...

paul ron · May 24, 2014

I take my martini inverted... Its not as gentle as a stir but does ensure there will be no silt setteling n does a good job keeping my film in fresh solution.

Snapshot · May 26, 2014

GRHazelton said:
Now even as a purist I'd be willing to try that. Like Hendrick's, Sapphire is far above my usual gin, Burnett's, but the cost.... What is a "dash"? Would a single malt improve the drink, or is a decent blend scotch okay? Inquiring minds want to know. BTW, let's not take TOO much "bite" away!

Save your single malts for sipping.

macgabhan · May 26, 2014

Inverting ... why not dispense with such frippery!

Hi All

I use semi-stand and have great results, you can see some examples on this youtube video that I made to introduce semi-stand development on my channel where I am making a series of videos to show my complete B&W workflow

http://youtu.be/iMN0zKxijJo

If you do take a look then do let me know what you think. Look out for further Semi-Stand videos in the near future.

Best wishes

Dave Smith

Snapshot · May 27, 2014

macgabhan said:
Hi All

I use semi-stand and have great results, you can see some examples on this youtube video that I made to introduce semi-stand development on my channel where I am making a series of videos to show my complete B&W workflow

http://youtu.be/iMN0zKxijJo

If you do take a look then do let me know what you think. Look out for further Semi-Stand videos in the near future.

Best wishes

Dave Smith

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the input. Stand and semi-stand development are useful but do have drawbacks. They can produce unwanted halo effects, is prone to bromide streaking and can give you fogging. As an aside, I liked your Fuji GX680 review.

Vaughn · May 27, 2014

Bill Burk said:
...As I looked over this thread, most comments minimized the importance of agitation. If you are practicing stand processing or divided development, then deliberately less agitation is the idea. But most of the time, I'd think vigorous agitation would be the best plan.

Same with fixer. With 120 film, I agitate almost continously -- I was finding that I was getting uneven fixing otherwise...less fixing in the middle (SS reels). Especially with TMax

mexipike · May 27, 2014

I've been using the method ilford lists with excellent results. They recommend four inversions during the first ten seconds of each minute along with a good firm tap to get the bubbles out.

Shaken, Not Stirred

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