Shadows on negatives using SP445

mitrajoon · Oct 14, 2018

I've used the SP445 to develop my 4x5s for awhile now. For some reason I've started getting shadows on my negatives from the spacer bars on the film holders (the ones that go the length of the negative). Has any one experienced this and know the cause/cure? I'm thinking it has to do with agitation but before I start burning film to test this assumption, I hope someone has the answer.

rgeorge911 · Oct 14, 2018

Hi, I have had this issue. I found that fixing a little longer and rinsing got rid of them, BUT, there is now a new design holder, open in that area, which eliminates the issue altogether:

https://shop.stearmanpress.com/collections/photography/products/4x5-film-holders-pair

Reed

Alan9940 · Oct 14, 2018

Before you go investing in the v3 holders linked to above, be advised that I have both the v1 and the v3 holders and have experienced "shadow issues" with some films. And, btw, I've never been able to track down exactly what causes them and/or when/why they may happen. Bottom line for me, after using this development tank since receiving it via the original Kickstarter campaign, is that I don't use it for any serious work. I will use it for testing something, but that's it. For me, I found I cannot rely on it 100%.

awty · Oct 14, 2018

Mine does the same, think it must be a 2. Havent noticed any problem for printing, but have changed to a rotary drum roller, which doesnt have any issues so far.

rgeorge911 · Oct 14, 2018

V3 works fine for me, but each setup is different. I am quite pleased with my tank.

mitrajoon · Oct 15, 2018

Thanks everyone. Version 3 is what I am using and getting shadows. It's inconsistent though. Sometimes they are prominent and sometimes there are none. Wish there was a simple answer. Will give it another try before moving on to a different method.

shutterfinger · Oct 15, 2018

Jobo 25xx tank with a 2509n reel and manual roller base give streak.shadow free results. Directions say to use 270ml chemical for rotary processing but 300 ml works better. Use an equal number of rotations each direction to prevent streaks. I rotate one direction for 1 minute then the other direction for 1 minute. Minor variations in rotations do not make a difference.

Shadows or streaks are usually caused by agitation technique that results in uneven chemical flow across the film.
Vintage Jobo tanks are 2521 magnet base, 2523 cog lid version, 2800 print. Current tank is 2500.

tim48v · Oct 24, 2018

Can you send use a scan of an affected negative? info@stearmanpress.com

If you're having issues with the Rev 3, it's probably anti-halation that isn't getting washed off.

Are you presoaking?

Tim

mitrajoon said:
Thanks everyone. Version 3 is what I am using and getting shadows. It's inconsistent though. Sometimes they are prominent and sometimes there are none. Wish there was a simple answer. Will give it another try before moving on to a different method.

wyofilm · Oct 24, 2018

I haven't seen shadows on my negatives. I don't what tank version I have. How does one identify the version?

Pioneer · Oct 24, 2018

I had this happen once. On opening the tank and withdrawing the film holder I found the back of the negative had somehow stuck itself to the film holder. Since then I have agitated extremely vigorously upon first adding fixer to the tank and then again during the first water rinse (using the old Ilford wash method.) The hope was to break the sheet away from the film holder by rapid and vigorous agitation.

I am not sure this is the cause or the answer to your issue but it has never happened to me again. I also purchased the latest version film holders but I tend to use the originals and the new ones interchangeably so I can't say that this alone would prevent the shadows. I also frequently hand wash my holders in Dawn and rinse them in clean water afterwards (part of the reason that I use the film holders interchangeably.) I do not add Photoflo in the tank but do this in a separate container after pulling the film from the tank.

I typically use the Jobo 2509n for color and the SP445 for black and white and have actually had good results with both systems.

mitrajoon · Oct 25, 2018

tim48v said:
Can you send use a scan of an affected negative? info@stearmanpress.com

If you're having issues with the Rev 3, it's probably anti-halation that isn't getting washed off.

Are you presoaking?

Tim

Tim,

Thxs for your response. This happened with 3-4 negatives. I threw out all but one which was of a Stouffer Gray Scale Card for testing exposure (this was at a LF workshop) and because the location of the shadows did not impact the results. I did a prewash but maybe it wasn't long enough. I will send you a scan with development details in the next day or two. FWIW, I'm sure it is something fixable like what you mentioned because it doesn't happen all the time.

wyofilm · Oct 25, 2018

I spoke to soon in post #9. Today I developed four sheets and two of them had a negative destroying shadow, right in line with the center plastic bar of the negative holder. This might be the first time I developed four sheets. Usually I only develop two sheets - one sheet per negative holder. I went to the website to see what ver 3 of the negative holders looked like. Version 3 negative holders have multiple (4?) vertical bars, while mine only has a single bar. Since the shadow showed up directly at the bar, I fail to see how version 3 neg holders will be better. However, I am only looking a website pic. Exactly how are the version 3 negative holders supposed to help?

For what it is worth I did any extensive pre-soak/wash.

wyofilm · Oct 25, 2018

Just had another look at the Stearman press website on the version 3 holders. Post #8 and the following description seem contradictory.

DESCRIPTION

SP-445 film holders for 4x5 sheet film. Newest Rev 3 design.

Note: this change was prompted by our factory engineers who wanted to improve the plastic flow during production. It has no significant impact on performance. (Okay, it looks cooler but that's about it.)

mitrajoon · Oct 26, 2018

wyofilm said:
Just had another look at the Stearman press website on the version 3 holders. Post #8 and the following description seem contradictory.

DESCRIPTION

SP-445 film holders for 4x5 sheet film. Newest Rev 3 design.

Note: this change was prompted by our factory engineers who wanted to improve the plastic flow during production. It has no significant impact on performance. (Okay, it looks cooler but that's about it.)

Wyofilm,

I just forwarded to Tim at info@steermanpress.com a scan of a negative with the shadow. Maybe if you send him one or two of yours it will help getting to the bottom of this.

wyofilm · Oct 26, 2018

mitrajoon said:
Wyofilm,

I just forwarded to Tim at info@steermanpress.com a scan of a negative with the shadow. Maybe if you send him one or two of yours it will help getting to the bottom of this.

Good idea. I'll do it this weekend.

mitrajoon · Oct 27, 2018

wyofilm said:
Good idea. I'll do it this weekend.

Great!

wyofilm · Oct 27, 2018

Below is a scan of one of the negs that had a shadow on it. I also sent this to Tim at Stearman Press. As I mentioned above, this might have been the first time I loaded four negatives and coincidentally the first time I've had such shadows.

tim48v · Oct 27, 2018

Haven't received an email from you yet.
So this "shadow" is on the back side of the film?

Tim

tim48v · Oct 27, 2018

You can find the film holder details here: https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/the-film-holder-saga-continues-rev-3

The change really had nothing to do with performance; strictly a production issue.

Regards,

Tim

wyofilm said:
I spoke to soon in post #9. Today I developed four sheets and two of them had a negative destroying shadow, right in line with the center plastic bar of the negative holder. This might be the first time I developed four sheets. Usually I only develop two sheets - one sheet per negative holder. I went to the website to see what ver 3 of the negative holders looked like. Version 3 negative holders have multiple (4?) vertical bars, while mine only has a single bar. Since the shadow showed up directly at the bar, I fail to see how version 3 neg holders will be better. However, I am only looking a website pic. Exactly how are the version 3 negative holders supposed to help?

For what it is worth I did any extensive pre-soak/wash.

wyofilm · Oct 27, 2018

tim48v said:
Haven't received an email from you yet.
So this "shadow" is on the back side of the film?

Tim

Tim,

I've tried to resend the email, but it looks like it isn't going through. I'm sure it is on my end of the hinter-net - one of the few downsides to living remotely. I'll try again after a bit.

I assume the shadow is on the emulsion side, but I'm not sure. When I load the sheets, I load them with the emulsion facing out from the neg holder. Where is the AH layer on portrait 160? On the back, or as a layer in the emulsion?

esearing · Oct 27, 2018

I had the issue around the tabs on V1 of the holders. I gave my holders a good soapy cleaning and stopped using photo-flo for final rinse and the issue has not returned.

Alan9940 · Oct 27, 2018

The shadows for me, with v3 holders, are always on the base side of the film and clearly follow the oval shape of the hole(s) in the holder. I've, also, seen it when developing only one sheet of film; so, I doubt having the tank full at 4 sheets means anything.

shutterfinger · Oct 27, 2018

The antihalation layer is on the base side of the film. It prevents light reflecting off the backing plate of a film holder or the pressure plate of roll film cameras onto the emulsion.

tim48v · Oct 27, 2018

If the "shadow" isn't on the base side of the film, it can't have anything to do with the film holder.

So far, the only issues we've seen with the rev 2 & 3 holders has been anti-halation coating that didn't get washed away. Rewashing or refixing should clear it up.

Frankly, we don't know why it affects a few people but not most. In fact, we've had almost zero luck replicating the problem. (We've probably processed a 1000 sheets of film.)

We've even had people send us their film holders that had problems and they worked fine here.

We thought maybe it was caused by the film holder not being "flat" enough. That doesn't seem to matter.

One user reported problems but only with film that had been stored frozen. Don't know why that would matter.

Presoaking may make it worse (btw, neither Ilford or kodak recommend presoaking their black and white films. It's 2018, films have changed. They now contain a "dispersion" agent in the emulsion.

We're stilling investigating and any additional info would be appreciated.

wyofilm · Oct 27, 2018

The C41 kit from cinestill has an optional pre-soak step, while Kodak is silent on the matter (according to the Kodak Alaris film description). I don't normally do a pre-soak except for Bergger who highly recommends a pre-soak. I have had not problems thus far with Bergger, the film I've processed most with the SP445 tank.

How might presoaking make the problem worse? Is this conclusion from observation? Because I'm failing to imagine how this step might make things worse.

Do you recommend emulsion towards the holder or away from the holder? (I have long since lost the instructions that came with my SP445 tank and can't find a link for them on you site.) Since you mention that any shadow on the emulsion side can't have anything to do with your holders, I conclude (perhaps incorrectly) that you recommend emulsion away from the holder.

For what it is worth, the Portra 160 that I used was once frozen.

Thanks for you help.

Shadows on negatives using SP445

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