Seriously dirty negatives. Seriously desperate call for HELP!

arigram said:

As far as digital is concerned, I spend some time to remove the defects with an image processing program before posting them in the APUG gallery. I wish I could that in the darkroom as well.

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You can always do that with 5 or 10 images, but you can't do it with 500.

Ari,
Perhaps your camera isn't spooling the film on as tightly as it should. I'm not sure how to describe this. I have had it happen to me with my Mamiya on occasion. When you go to remove the film, can you pull the paper end tighter before sealing it?

Hi Ari

Sorry to come in late on this one. My heart go's out to you man. Have been there myself recently. I know how soul destroying it can be.

I have read through the thread and I really do feel the answer lies in your water source. Yes, you will get the odd hair, be it eye lash or other. Sometimes the odd carpet fibre creeps under the glass in the carrier and can be totally invisable untill enlarged on a print. But most of these creep in during a printing session.

To me , if you have a poor water supply, its never going to be enough just to use distilled water for a final rinse. I feel it will have to be used right through the process, as has already been mentioned. During the processing of the film, if that crud from the tap water gets on to the film, its staying there no matter what you use as a final rinse.

I posted a similar thread to yours and as always, fellow APUGers came up trumps. I knocked the tap water on the head and used purified water right through the process, later replacing the water with reverse osmosis water from a tropical fish centre(I now have an undersink R.O system fitted)

Problem cured? Well not quite. I was still getting a little bit of crud, though nothing like before untill some one mentioned on APUG about using fixer for more than one film.

I know it is an expensive way to do things, but it does make sence. When you pour a used fixer in to your developing tank, the silver deposits cling to the soft emulsion. The more films it has fixed, the more silver present.

I use fresh fix for every film or films developed. And it does'nt go to waste as I then use it in my Nova for fixing paper. And my final insurance against any airborn dust is to drop the film in to the final rinse with wetting agent, freshly mixed, and remove the film from the rinse inside my drying cabinet/area.

Problem sorted. Squeeky clean film.

I hope this helps and good luck

All the best

Stoo

Stoo Batchelor said:

Problem cured? Well not quite. I was still getting a little bit of crud, though nothing like before untill some one mentioned on APUG about using fixer for more than one film.

I know it is an expensive way to do things, but it does make sence. When you pour a used fixer in to your developing tank, the silver deposits cling to the soft emulsion. The more films it has fixed, the more silver present.

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Never thought of that, and I missed the thread. I've been having worse problems with deposits on the negatives recently, which probably does coincide with me starting to re-use fixer. I'd put it down to hot weather making the negs dry faster, but that doesn't really make sense now I think about it.

Thanks,
Ian

Ari, I sympathize with you. You have to tackle every problem systematically. Start with the film backs. Make certain they are always clean and free of dirt. Check the dark slides for any dirt or sharp burrs that could cause the scratches. Are the scratches in a consistent direction or are they randomly oriented? What direction do they go? This might help clue you in to the cause of the scratches.

Water, while it may be desireable to use distilled water for every facet of development it is not terribly practical. I use distilled water for developer and for the presoak as well as for the wetting agent. For the rest of your water usage you need to filter the water using a 2- 5 micron filter. Do not use a carbon (charcoal) filter, or a Britta type filter as they can often leave small bits of carbon media in the water. You may also have to look into the addition of a water softener in your water system. In my system the water goes through a 2 micron filter, then a 2 micron carbon filter ( removes chlorine) , then water softener, and then at the point of the darkroom sink another 5 micron water filter (non carbon).

Overly strong stop bath can cause tiny "explosions" in the emulsion when it contacts developer. I use a water rinse, then slightly weak stop bath, then another water rinse between developer and fix. And to be certain that my rapid fix does not die in the middle of a film run, or leaves any particulates in the tank or on the film, I always use a 2 bath fixer. That is the first 3 minutes of the rapid fixer fixing is done with container A, and the last two minutes of fixing is done with container B. When container A comes up exhausted during a fixing, I extend the time that the film is in Fix B. Then fix B gets poured into the Fix A bottle and becomes the new first fixer. I then mix brand new fixer for container B. This way I can always check to see if the fixer is exhausted during a film run, and fresh, barely used fixer always finishes up the fixing process and helps to dissolve any particulate that might be floating in the first fixer.

After washing in the highly filtered, softened water, I then use photo flo made with distilled water, although at a far weaker dilution than kodak suggests. I also add a touch of 91 percent Isopropyl alcohol to the wetting agent. I find that it speeds drying slightly. I then, squeegee the film, yes that's right, squeegee the film using a Jobo Squeegee which is wet with the same diluted wetting agent on it. I would not use the squeegee dry. The film is then hung in the darkroom over a sink. I keep the squeegee meticulously clean and in it's original packaging. Do not let wetting agent dry on the aqueegee. The rationale for the squeegee is to speed drying, prevent water marks and to physically remove any small particles that may cling to the film and ultimately dry into the emulsion. So far this system has yielded me very clean negs.

Hello Ari.

I had the similar problems to yours, but not to the same degree that you are experiencing. Like Diane, I found that pulling the film backing paper tight before sticking it down stopped flare on the edges of rollfilm. Slackness in winding was the problem there.

I used to use distilled water that I bought from a shop, but still got all sorts of stuff on the film. Holding freshly washed film at angles to the light one day I noticed a thin suspension of matter in the water still covering the film after the final rinse. As far as I could make out, the plastic bottles that held the distilled water had some sort of manufacturing residue in them, so I stopped using it and bought a home steam distiller.

I now use unfiltered tap water for all stages (including just a plain tap water stop bath) but give three final rinses in water from the steam distiller after washing. I then hang the film from a clip over a plastic basin, and play a stream of the distiller water on both sides of if from a a small plastic squeeze bottle with a fine spout - from one of my wife's hair-dye kits, I think. Anything still hanging on gets blasted off. Then into a drying cabinet. cured all my problems, I'm glad to say.

If you can't find a solution after following all the other good advice from others, perhaps your source of distilled water is suspect, as mine was.

Regards,
Neil.

arigram said:

and put them into special plastic sleeves.

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I have a Sony Digi-UberPixel you'll be very happy with, against your Hassy (blah) equipment!

Seriously, as others have already said, you're more meticulous than most. You may have a much more dust-prone environment, probably do. But the ONE thing that really stuck out for me is the plastic sleeves. Bad, and I mean BAAAAAAD idea. The static induced when sliding the negs in ensures that the sleeves cling to the emulsion on the way in, and the film comes out charged with dust-attracting static that is carried into your enlarger. Get the pergamine/paper sleeves.
Won't solve the light leaks problem, but won't hurt I can assure you!

Thank you guys for keeping posting advice.
There is much to think about and that's why I haven't replied or come up with the solution yet.
I am trying to fix a couple things of my darkroom and that will also include calling the plumber to check my water for dirt. Maybe get a better filter installed or get something like a table top purifier, like the Brita I used to use in the US.
I have yet to also do some more testing like with some sample shots and film development, but from now on I will use the fixer once and run all the water while mixing the chemicals through a coffee filter.

As far as the light leak, I think I pull the 120 paper tight enough when I seal it. I will probably have to track down a local photographer (and teacher) that uses a Mamiya 67. He might help me out better.

Thank you again.
a.

Ari-
Another thought. I seem to recall reading in Kramer's LF column in Popular Photography decades ago that he found similar problems in a new darkroom he had built. It turned out to be problems with the water caused by the plumber using pipe threading compound (pipe dope) instead of teflon tape. Anyway, did you ever shoot a roll of E-6 and have an outside lab process it to determine if it is happening in the camera or as a result of processing?
bart

Ari. Any luck yet with solving your problem? It is like the end of an Agatha Christie "who dunnit" novel. We readers are dying to know what was the villain.

pentaxuser

I apologise but I have no happy end to report at present.
You have to understand (like I painfully did) that things move slowly here in Greece, especially during the month of August, especially this particular summer where people I haven't seen in years decide to visit me all at once.
Let alone other things...
So, I haven't had much time to dedicate inside the dark room.

In any case, I have called a specialist in insulation to take care of a humidity problem I have and also the plumber who told me he is going to look for another filter.

We shall see...

YEAY!

... or atleast I am almost sure!

I think, I solved the problem. I am not swearing with my hand on the fire but, my last negatives came out pretty well.

What I did was the following:

- I changed my filter. I discovered that the plumber had connected filter on the same pipe that goes to my darkroom but also connects to the washing machine of my parents so the filter saw a lot of use even when I was not in the darkroom.
- I used distilled water for all the chemicals which were freshly mixed.
- I mixed the stop bath using less the recommended dillution, that is I mixed about 30-40 stop to the rest of the liter water.
- I used tap water only for the final wash which were done with changes instead of using the jobo for running water. I did five changes of 10,10,5,5,5 minutes, so that was pleantly.
- I run all water and chemicals through a plastic resusalble coffee filter.
- I wet and cleaned the tank and reels before loading them.
- I loaded the film standing instead of sitting in case it accidentally touched the floor, my apron or clothes and picked up and dirt.
- I used distilled water for the pre-rinse.
- I soaked a squeegee in distilled water and agfa's washing agent and run the film gently while they hanged.
- I dipped the film as usually in distilled water and washing agent before hanging them.
- I used the hair dryer I have installed in the drying cabinet for quicker drying. That was BAD! I got water marks in some frames but thankfully nothing tragic. I won't do it again!
- I cut and put them in the sleeves right next to the drying cabinet.

Can you get any more anal than that?

I also took some C-41 color ones which the lab delivered in good condition.

So, I haven't found the criminal yet, but the crime was prevented at the moment.

I used to hang my BW film up in the shower overnight with a coathanger and weight clips on the bottoms. I never had dust! The hairdryer sounds really bad. If you have a film drying cabinet at all - it's critically important to be dust free area... very east to attract dust with those things. Try to keep some compressed air around to clean out the camera, etc...

arigram said:

- I soaked a squeegee in distilled water and agfa's washing agent and run the film gently while they hanged.

Can you get any more anal than that?

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Do not use a squeegee for removing excess water on the negative - use the recommended dilution of photo flo and soak for 30-45 seconds. The squeegee or even a shammy (chamois) can cause some very nasty scratches on the negative even though you may think they are clean. Now you (I) can still get more anal than that. There are still a few no-nos still but if you can live with them then its your call.

I have developed succesfully a group of negatives that seem not to contain any embedded dirt, scratches or other flaws (save for being a bit underdeveloped as I am still adjusting to the jobo).

My new question:

Can one buy anti-static plastic to use as covers for the darkroom equipment?
I've found some computer accessories covers that fit some of my stuff, such as the enlarger and the Analyser but for large items such as the 50x60cm frame and the jobo cpp-2 I may need to find sheets of it.
I thought about a lot to ask as american stores such as Home Depot wouldn't help as they aren't found around here, but... any ideas?

arigram said:

I have developed succesfully a group of negatives that seem not to contain any embedded dirt, scratches or other flaws (save for being a bit underdeveloped as I am still adjusting to the jobo).

My new question:

Can one buy anti-static plastic to use as covers for the darkroom equipment?
I've found some computer accessories covers that fit some of my stuff, such as the enlarger and the Analyser but for large items such as the 50x60cm frame and the jobo cpp-2 I may need to find sheets of it.
I thought about a lot to ask as american stores such as Home Depot wouldn't help as they aren't found around here, but... any ideas?

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I did a google. There are many companies that produce anti static plastic covers and cloths but not the size you want for your CCP2. I normal put a large towel over the CCP2 not in use and empty of water. You can use an Ilford Anti-static or a Kinetronics Anti static cloth to wipe down the CCP2, tanks, and reels if you are concern about static. I would still look for an table air cleaner with the ability to remove static charges from the air.

visit:

http://www.kinetronics.com

http://www.mycableshop.com

Dead Link Removed

Good luck.

I was going to say Greek is about as anal as one can get but I decided not to since I could be misunderstood.

Claire Senft said:

I was going to say Greek is about as anal as one can get but I decided not to since I could be misunderstood.

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I am interested so lets hear it.