Seriously dirty negatives. Seriously desperate call for HELP!

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arigram

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I am very, very frustrated, very dissapointed, very upset and very desperate. So much that I think of throwing the Hasselblad out of the window and take photos with a digital.
The reason?
Very dirty negatives. Scratches. Pinholes. Light leaks. EVERYTHING!
Honestly, every session in the darkroom has been filled of anxiety.
Every time I take a look at a negative or print I don't look for exposure, or
composition or tonallity, but I look to see how ruined is the photograph by stupid dirt.
I have many good photographs that if not ruined by little hair, or spots, or scratches or light on the edges, they are definately taken some of their magic and beauty.
I find spots of dust around, little hair, not very often but sometimes even pinholes or holes in the negative, scratches and usually in the wrong places.
I recently transfered all film development to a jobo in hopes that it will standarize and stabillize every work but I see this.
I've tried everything in my power to fix the problem but its still there!
And since I do a lot of portraiture, often the dirt will be on the face or somewhere to ruin a good photograph. Taking two or even three shots of the same subject doesn't help as the dirt is everywhere.
Seriously, if I gave up on film and went digital, that would be the reason.

I will describe to you what a film goes through with me in case you can identify a wrong or suspicious step.

I take the 120 film out of the card box and then out of the wrapping and while holding it I open one of the Hasselblad backs which is ready to receive film. I wind the film the proper way while in the shade or keeping the sun on my back as much as possible.
After I am done, I find a shade or my back to the sun, take out the film, keep it tight while I lick the paper flap, fold the backing paper once on the edge, tape it over with the flap and leave a bit of the latter free. The film then ends up somewhere dark, like a Lowepro film pouch, its cardboard box, or in the camera bag.
When I arrive home, I put the exposed films in an Ilford ex-paper box and keep them there until they go to the darkroom which could be days.
When I finally start a developing session, I take out the films from the box only in completely darkness as I roll them in the tank spools.
Before that the room is set up in the right temperature, the chemicals are ready in the jobo and the music is playing.
I use distilled water for the developer and for the photoflo bit, the rest are with tap water.
I sit on a chair next to my bench with everything set up in front of me, wear disposable thin plastic gloves, turn off the light and start spooling the rolls.
Beceause the way the jobo spools are made, I use my thumbs to lightly touch the film while I twist the spool. All the time, the film is hanging with care not to touch anywhere.
The sticky paper on the end I fold and stick to itself when the backing paper is pulled loose. When I put two films in a spool, the first goes with the sticky paper on the end, and the second with it on the beginning so even with the red tap there won't be a chance of the rolls overlapping each other. I push the first one two turns after its gone through.
I have also tried the rolls with the sticky tape by cutting it out.
When a spool is full I put it inside the tank through the axis and then close it well when I am done.
I put the tank on the jobo CPP-2 and start the rotation.
I start with three minutes or so of soaking the film with water. I tried tap water and distilled.
Then the normal process of chemicals, one minutes washing before hypo clear using the special jobo hose on the tap, then washing for five or more minutes with the same accessory.
I take the tank, pull out the inside of the films still on the spools and axis, set it in front of me and open a cabinet I've made of wood and plastic sheet to use for drying.
Wearing the disposable gloves again, I take each roll, dip it inside a bottle of distilled water and photoflo(ilford or agfa version) and immediatelly hung it on the drying cabinet. The motion is of just sitting on the chair and rotating a hundred degrees from my right where the film is and to my left where the cabinet is waiting.
Lately I have begun to to shake off a bit of the water off the roll first.
When all films are hunging I close the cabinet up.
They are left there a night or day to dry without heating. I have installed a hair drier on top of the cabinet but its too powerful even if it was the cheapest I could find an usually don't use it. My rationale? To avoid distorting the negatives, making them curl or "cook" any dust or water mark in the emulsion. Apparently to no avail.
The cabinet looks dust free inside.
Then I take them, set them on a table or chair and cut and put them into special plastic sleeves.

And they come out dirty. And scratchy. And with light on the horizontal sides of the negative (where the Hassy marks are and the opposite edge).
And I break my head to understand why.

Can you please help me?
I am so hurt that I am not touching a camera or a negative unless I find a solution to this serious problem.
 
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DBP

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Haven't any ideas on the dirt, as you are far more careful than I, and don't have a clothes dryer in the darkroom. As for the edges and the scratches, try shooting a roll of C-41 or E-6 and having a lab develop it, so you can see whether the Hassy is doing anything wrong. Worst scratches I have had occured in the camera, and it was just a matter of cleaning.
 

noseoil

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Ari, chin up buddy! Sounds like a beer and a session in the moaning chair is in order at this point. I'm not sure exactly where you are getting dirt, but I have a couple of suggestions. First, can you try a roll done mostly by hand? I mean to load a roll onto a spool and just forget the Jobo. Load the film onto a spool, add water to soak, mix fresh developer, stop and fixer, then finish with a bit of tap water?

Somewhere along the way, there must be contamination. Is your tap water filtered (old city well with old pipes, rust, minerals, etc.). Do you re-use your developer? If so, try a regular coffee filter for the next batch, or mix a new batch with distilled water. Is your stop bath perfectly clean? Again, filter with the paper coffee filter just to make sure. Is your fixer reused a lot & dirty? Same thing, use a filter each time or mix it up fresh. Try a rinse in distilled water, rinse with fresh photo-flo.

When you hang your film to dry, do you use a loupe to study it first? After the stop bath in dim light is there dirt? This is why I'm suggesting a step by step trial with just one roll. There has to be a source of contamination, and you will find it! Drink a beer, think again, don't let the bastards grind you down! tim
 

glbeas

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Another thing to add, damp mop the darkroom a day before and wipe everything down with a damp rag, especially the inside of the drying cabinet. If theres dirt, you will see it on the damp rag as you wipe. good luck!
 

Jim Jones

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You are much more meticulous than me. I use stainless steel reels and tanks for 35mm or occasional 120, and trays for 4x5, in a dusty darkroom, and have less trouble than you describe. Perhaps an electrostatic air filter, and raising the humidity in the darkroom, will help. Dust and low humidity are a bad combination in a darkroom.
 

john_s

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I don't take most of the precautions against dust and contamination that you do, and I never have these problems. I surmise that this is a result of no particular virture of mine, but just mostly just an accident of my location, climate and environment. It seems to me that it's your environment, and probably the washing/drying conditions that are leading to most of your problems.

When you say"..I find spots of dust around, little hair, not very often but sometimes even pinholes or holes in the negative, scratches ", I think you must make a distinction between these types of damage. Pinholes and scratches have different causes to dust and hairs.

Can you develop some films in a different darkroom/environment to try to eliminate the different types of defect? Or perhaps you could get someone else to do a film in your place? There must be an answer to your problems.

The pre rinse of the film should be done with constant agitation, and I think that fixing should be done with constant or almost constant agitation. Is your rinse+photoflo totally free of dust or any suspended matter?

I actually use one of those negative squeegees that are frowned upon these days. It leaves the negs fairly free of water and, according to my thinking, less likely to pick up atmospheric dust. My wash water + photoflo is totally clear.
 

pentaxuser

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Arigram. Sorry to hear of this very frustrating episode. I had already composed a reply which failed to be sent. So it's now disappeared. It's been a bad day or two for APUG and you.

Anyway I'll try again now as I am sure you will. You've invested too much of your time and spirit into photography to give up. It's a pity that all our help has to be over the internet and that a couple of us can't come round to your darkroom in the next hour. There's nothing like having another person there in the flesh to give support. Sometimes two heads there in person is better than a 100 internet helpers.

If possible I'd be tempted to load another film into another camera and go out and shoot anything then process again, having re-checked all your equipment. If it cures the problem then at least you know that the process is OK. Another film in the Hassy then confirms or eliminates that as the problem.

Is this the first time it has happened? I wasn't able to wok out if you have used both the Hassy and your darkroom process without any problems in the past? I recall that your darkroom is quite new. Could it be that the water in Crete can suddenly develop contamination problems. Remember that in the summer we non-Greeks put a lot of strain on all the Cretan resources such as your water, tolerance of noisy and drunk tourists etc.

Anyway best of luck. Keep us posted and we'll get there with you. I'll won't say anything more in case this one disappears as well.

pentaxuser
 

Edwardv

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First, clean you magazines to the Hassy. Second, use distilled water to mix all your chemicals and wash with distilled water; no tap water at all. If this works then it is your water. You will need to get a 5-micron activated carbon (charcoal) water filter for your tap water. Third, for the darkroom get an air cleaner like a Norelco CAM-70 (mine is old) which neutralizes the air as well(something to do with postive and negatives ions, cannot really explain it but it works). You will need to run the air cleaner 30 minutes bofore working in the darkroom.

Good luck.
 

catem

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You could try using water instead of chemical stop - that can cause pinholes in negs and prints - also I used different things for wiping negs before hanging - squeegee, chamois leather, and now just use my own clean fingers, running the film v. lightly through first & second finger (obviously being careful of emulsion side). If find it's important to wipe them, but also to do it v. carefully (lightly & swiftly).

If it's any consolation, I understand dust can be a terrible problem with digital aswell...
Good luck......

Cate
 

Jerevan

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I can't give much advices but I think raising the humidity as has been pointed out, is a good start. It helps a lot with the effects of dust (it settles and is less likely to swirl around and stick itself onto the negs) and some of the curling of the film also goes away. I would hoover the area, mop the floor and use a humidifier or at least turn on the water a bit before getting to work.

Keep hanging in there, things will get better!
 

Fotohuis

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Ari, first check your Hassy by an E-6 (or C41) film developed somewhere hopefully possible in Crete after you cleaned the magazines. Here you can check your camera on light leaks or maybe scratches mostly parallel, caused maybe by the camera.

If suddenly dirty and scratched negatives occured with rotation (CPP) which was not before the case I should suspect your water. Use demi-water from the bottle to check out after have rinsed and cleaning your Jobo tanks.

Think in an analytical way. Step by step by excluding things out. I am sure you can find out your problem.
In case of emergency you can always drop a B&W 120 roll film in an envelope to us for checking out.
Digital will not solve your problem in Crete on longer termin due to dust on your CCD.
Further I can advise you to develop your C41 film outside due to the nice temperature in Europe.
To give you some inspiration:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/diy_color/discuss/72157594203959974/
and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/193355670/in/pool-diy_color/

Best regards,

Robert
 

dmr

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DBP said:
and don't have a clothes dryer in the darkroom.

This is a real long-shot, and I am not a darkroom expert by any means. The times I've been in a wet darkroom (for regular photo) can be counted on my fingers. :smile:

I didn't see this in your original item, but if there's a clothes dryer in the area, particularly one that is not vented outside, or one that is missing the lint filter or has a dirty or clogged lint filter, it can put an awful lot of lint particles into the air in the vicinity. Something like this could end up as the little hairlike things on your negatives.

If you have a window in your laundry area, do a load of drying right before a time of day when sunlight streams in. If you are leaking a lot of lint, you will see the lint motes very distinctly in the beam of sunlight coming through the window.

This is a long-shot, but it's something I thought I should mention.
 

fhovie

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I have never been impressed with the magazines for the Hassy. They easily bind and miss frames. Especially older worn ones like I have. I would direct my attention there. It is really unlikely the problem is elsewhere. I would send the whole system out for a good CLA. I routinely vacuum out my cameras and film backs. I live in the desert and dust is a real enemy. I don't get it inside my SLRs much but it is always an issue with folders or LF.
 

ricksplace

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keep your chin up

Hey Ari.

Man, that sounds frustrating!

My darkroom also has a washer and dryer in it, and a metal lathe, and wine making supplies. I don't have a problem with dust on my negs at all! All the advice I have read is good, particularily the advice about your water. The turbidity in the water in Thunder Bay is really low, so particulate stains are not a problem for me. I use only water stop now for all film processing, and I never get pinholes anymore.

I did experience some problems with 120 negs that are similar to what you describe (without the hairs). It was the film!! It was Arista edu ultra (Foma) and it was a bad batch. (I found the link with the offending lot numbers on apug)

Here's my suggestion: Buy a new single roll of film and immediately load it into your hassy. Shoot it. Return to the lab, remove the film from the back at the lab and get it souped. If anything shows up on your negs, the problem is with your camera/film back. Of course, if you have multiple film backs, it could be any one of the film backs. I subject my film backs to the suction of a large shop vac every so often to remove dust.

Good luck and let us know how things pan out.
 

Claire Senft

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If your processing area is closed off and you can increase the air pressure in your processing area then when the darkroom is entered or left no dust can come in. 5 micron water filters are worth their weight in gold but they are not very expensive and not too hard to install. You do not say much about your darkroom construction. Do you have smooth walls? Do you have a smooth ceiling? If you have clear areas on your negatives, not pinholes, that would be dust from exposure..pretty hard to do and easily cured..blow out your Hasselblad with air that is not overly forceful. Is your drying cabinet well sealed? Is it dust free? Wipe it out with a damp rag. If your darkroom is enclosed I would install a plenum with an intake fan. Just before the fan I would install some air cleaning filters for autos. I would install an exhuast vent and furnace pipe at the far side of the room that leads back to the plenum. To do this effectively the area needs to be separate and well sealed. A smaller area will recirculate and clean the air more readily than will a large area.
 

JBrunner

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First run a roll of E6 and send directly to the lab. If it comes back filthy, (unless the lab sucks) it will show your camera, mags, or camera procedure to be the culprit. If they come back clean, the source of contamination is in your darkroom or darkroom procedure. These things are very frustrating, but you can get to the bottom of it.
 

phfitz

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Hi Ari,

Try processing a roll of film straight out of the box and see if you still have a problem with the film or darkroom.

Go to a paint or auto store and get some "tack rags", cheese-cloth with resin on it that sucks-up dust for paint and varnish work, to clean out your drying cabinet.

They do make plastic canisters for 120 like 35mm, they show-up on ebay now and then.

Hot, dry air = static electricity, try a 'ground plate', just a metal plate wired to a plumbing pipe that you just touch.

Like everyone has said, filter the water for everything and no acid stop bath.

You'll spend more on batteries for a digi-cam than you're spending on film and still have digi-prints.

Good luck with it, gremlins suck.
 

DBP

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dmr said:
This is a real long-shot, and I am not a darkroom expert by any means. The times I've been in a wet darkroom (for regular photo) can be counted on my fingers. :smile:

I didn't see this in your original item, but if there's a clothes dryer in the area, particularly one that is not vented outside, or one that is missing the lint filter or has a dirty or clogged lint filter, it can put an awful lot of lint particles into the air in the vicinity. Something like this could end up as the little hairlike things on your negatives.

If you have a window in your laundry area, do a load of drying right before a time of day when sunlight streams in. If you are leaking a lot of lint, you will see the lint motes very distinctly in the beam of sunlight coming through the window.

This is a long-shot, but it's something I thought I should mention.

Ari doesn't have the clothes dryer in the darkroom problem, I do. And it is vented outside, so between that and the darkroom exhaust system it doesn't cause too much trouble. I suspect his problem is the camera, the water, or both.
 
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arigram

arigram

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Thank you all those that have replied.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is check the water again and develop a few films using only distilled water and check the results. Maybe strain the water before I mix it with the chemicals.

Some more information:

1. The darkroom. I have posted photos of my darkroom at the relevant thread. Its purposly made.
2. I have three Hassy backs which are always well clean and take care not for them to touch anything when I shoot.
3. All my Hasselblad equipment is brand new, bought from the greek representative. When I suspected my first back for the light edges I had the greek Hasselblad technician check it out and didn't find anything.
4. The water is not really the best, but it gets filtered from two different large filter systems.
5. We have lots of humidity here (its an island) and so actually I have problem with too much. I soon bring a specialist to insulate my darkroom.
6. I run an air conditioner and also have an air exaust at the other side. It could well be the source of the dust.
7. I had the same troubles when I developed by hand and I thought they would finish by going over to the jobo.
8. The drying cabinet feels clean when I inspect and run my fingers over it. It is always closed and only opens just before I hung or take out films.
9. The only film I use is Ilford. I also used some Kodak TriX 320. So, I haven't used any Efke, Foma, or Rollei films that have sensitive to light and scratches emulsion.
10. I use the developer only once, the fixer only twice and, well, I use a lot of the stop and hypo clear.
11. The beginning soaking water is in the jobo with constant rotation.
 

Fotohuis

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7. I had the same troubles when I developed by hand and I thought they would finish by going over to the jobo.

That will not help. Most people who are switching to rotation have more problems in the beginning (Uneven development and too dense negatives). So the cause is not solved. I would strongly suggest to do some research about your water.
 

Petzi

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arigram said:
Seriously, if I gave up on film and went digital, that would be the reason.

If you think that a digital camera would solve all your dust problems, I can assure you that you're mistaken. I speak from own experience.
 
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TimVermont

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Hi Ari,

Clean your Jobo spools with a toothbrush, _hot_ water and a little bit of bleach. (don't let them soak in a bleach solution, per JoBo USA this embrittles the plastic.) Clean the tanks, cores, funnels and lids as well. Once you have a bone-dry spool, unwrap a fresh, unexposed roll of film directly onto the JoBo spool and process it through all steps. Whatever result you get with this film, the camera has nothing to do with it.

As to the camera, I would shine a very bright light along the face edge of your film magazines, then pull and insert the darkslides. Watch for tiny particles of fiber. Do the same thing across the back of the camera body as you trip the shutter and or mirror pre-release. Also check the clamping action of the film inserts, make sure that your film is under both edge clamps, and that no emulsion or paper is getting scraped off as the film moves along the insert. I know you have quite new equipment, but it is easy to damage the edge clamps. If you do find one that is scraping, make sure the insert is mated to the right back.
 

Charles Webb

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I have seen the exposed, light leaked film edges on rolls of developed film. I found in my own case it was due to not perfectly centering the paper tap in the take up spool slot. Perfectly centered the edge of the paper backing curls up a bit as it contacts the inside of the spool. This created a suposedly light proof seal. If not centered on the spool the paper shifts to one side or other, leaving an area with too much paper on one side and not sealed by the paper on the opposite side. The older Rollei's were notorous for this! Just a thought!



Charlie..............................
 

glbeas

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Ari, is there anyone else in your household that may be opening your drying cabinet while the film is drying and either taking them out to look at them or doing something else to raise dust and dirt? If the dirt is not coming from your clothes it has to be from another source than your activities. Maybe someone coming in and sweeping the floor?
 
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arigram

arigram

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Thanks guys.
The jobo reels and tanks look pretty clean to me when they get used and even then I thought that soaking could help further. Plus if they got a bit of dust, they wouldn't give me the problems I am having.
About the Hasselblad light leak, if it was what you suggest Charles then it would leak only on one side but I find it on both sides.
And Gary, no one else gets in the darkroom but me. I am the only one who has keys anyway.

As far as digital is concerned, I spend some time to remove the defects with an image processing program before posting them in the APUG gallery. I wish I could that in the darkroom as well.
 
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