Sepia toning Ilford Multigrade Classic FB paper

[Marco Buonocore]

Does anyone have any thoughts on sepia toning the new Ilford Classic FB paper? I tried 3 different thiocarbamide toners today, and got rather "fleshy" tones. Not particularly appealing! I used to be able to make the old MGIV paper sing.

Has anyone used a sepia toner that gave them good results? Let me know the formula, and I'll give it a try.

Thanks!

 

[brian steinberger]

I actually did try my homemade thio sepia on Classic the other week. Unlike you, I could never get a nice rich sepia with the old MGIV except subtle split tones. MGWT in viradon is a nice sepia but a bit reddish sometimes. I've been looking for a nice rich brownish sepia. I haven't had a chance to compare the classic prints with past MGIV prints yet but my first impressions are that the new Classic paper sepia tones in thio better than MGIV but not by much. And I did get different hues when varying the sodium hydroxide level. Next I want to try indirect virdon toning with classic.

What developer are you using? It makes a difference. I'm using LPD 1:2.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Hi Brian,

I use Dektol 1:2 with Classic; same as I used for MGIV. I used to get a nice "sunlit" sepia with a the Dupont Varigam T3 toner - thiocarbamide and potassium carbonate. It's the sunlit look that I'm most interested in.

Insofar as reddish browns go, have a look at Ilford Warmtone in the Dupont T1 toner, which IIRC is 3mg thiocarbamide and 6mg sodium hydroxide. That same T1 toner when used with the old MGIV gave a very interesting purple tone that I liked better than selenium.

I'd be interested in trying the polytoners / viradon with the Ilford papers, but my current darkroom setup doesn't allow it.

I guess more experimentation is in order.

Thanks,

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Today I had a printing session where I used my last three sheets of Ilford Multigrade IV fiber matte, and also used some Ilford Multigrade Classic matte, both in 11x14 size.

I printed using my standard replenished Ethol LPD developer, and I used Moersch MT-3 variable thiourea toner, in dark yellow setting, and the bleach was diluted to 1:100. Subsequently the prints were toned using Harman selenium toner at about 1:7 dilution.

Results: The old MG has different contrast, and the way it responded to the toner was a lot more subtle. I start with the thiourea, and finish in selenium. MGIV was bleached for 90 seconds, two minutes, and the MG Classic for 60 seconds. The thiourea toning was different, where the MGIV displayed a lot more subtle and lighter toning, and the Classic was darker but with better shadow separation, and it reacted much stronger to the thiourea in spite of the shorter bleach timing.
In the selenium the old MGIV took about two minutes to get a nice maroon shadow without looking terrible, and the Classic exploded with color in about 30 seconds. The difference is astronomical.

But I like how the prints on both papers look. The Classic is different, and I will love to live with it.

Other observations: Classic is stiffer when wet than MGIV. It has shorter exposure requirements, and has slightly more contrast overall as well as in the shadows (that could be due to the age of my MGIV paper). Very beautiful paper.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Hi Thomas,

Certainly the new Classic paper reacts much more readily to bleach than the old MGIV. I would have to hammer the MGIV with full strength bleach for 2 minutes to get the effect I wanted.

I don't do a lot of partial bleaching; the look I prefer is usually achieved through selenium toning first to get the shadows locked down, and then bleach whatever is left and sepia tone with a thiocarbamide toner.

My problem with the classic is that I don't like any of the sepia tones I can coax out of it - they're not what I'm after. I use a variable thiocarbamide sepia toner with Sodium Hydroxide, Potassium Carbonate, Sodium Carbonate and TSP as the alkali. I've even used smelly sodium sulphide. None of the colours were my cup of tea. After a box of 50 sheets of 16x20, I decided that my best use for the Classic will be as a Neutral / Cold tone paper achieved through Selenium toning (1:10, 2 min or thereabouts). I'll use the MG Warmtone for sepia tones.

I still have some half a box of MGIV 20x24 which I'll use carefully. When it's all said and done, I prefer it to the Classic. I feel I was able to do much more with it. I'm looking at a print on my wall right now, MGIV in Selenium 1:5 first, then fully bleached and toned with Dupont's T1 toner. Man, it's luminous. The blacks have a quality that really has to be seen to be believed. I can't seem to get that with the new paper.

I'm glad to hear you had such good luck with it, Thomas. Maybe I'll try more partial, delicate toning with it.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hi Marco, I am not familiar with most of the toners you mention. I'm not much of a chemist. Instead I use what I can buy commercially, perhaps to my detriment. The sequence you use with toning is opposite of mine. I like to just partially bleach back the print in the highlights, tone them back with thiourea/thiocarbamide/sulfide toners, and then selenium or gold tone from the bottom up. I get an intense glow from the highlights this way, and since I use matte papers this is especially beneficial due to the much flatter appearance of those papers.

Good luck moving forward.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

You should really have a crack at the Dupont thiocarbamide based toners. I bet you'd love them. In changing the type of alkali in the formula, you change the colour of the sepia tone. It's quite magical. You don't need to be too much of a chemist to do it either, just handle the thiocarbamide and sodium hydroxide with care. I make 10% solutions out of both, and use them as a liquid concentrate. It's very convenient. I handle the dry powders probably twice a year. The range of sepia tones that you can get with a paper like IMG WT is wonderful.

I suspect the Moersch kit is the same product, more or less, at a greatly inflated price. Considering you're in the USA, and have easy access to Artcraft and Photo Formulary, you could be up and running for a pretty reasonable cost.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

You should really have a crack at the Dupont thiocarbamide based toners. I bet you'd love them. In changing the type of alkali in the formula, you change the colour of the sepia tone. It's quite magical. You don't need to be too much of a chemist to do it either, just handle the thiocarbamide and sodium hydroxide with care. I make 10% solutions out of both, and use them as a liquid concentrate. It's very convenient. I handle the dry powders probably twice a year. The range of sepia tones that you can get with a paper like IMG WT is wonderful.

I suspect the Moersch kit is the same product, more or less, at a greatly inflated price. Considering you're in the USA, and have easy access to Artcraft and Photo Formulary, you could be up and running for a pretty reasonable cost.

You mean the Moersch MT-3 variable sulfide toner? That's what I use for the most part, and the alkali doesn't actually change, only the ratio of toner to alkali. The less alkali compared to developer, the more yellow the tones become, and the other way when more alkali is added we are talking maroon.
Sure, you would pay about 70 dollars for a kit here in the US, and I had to buy some more of the toner itself a couple of years ago, but I've been basically using the same kit for three years now. It lasts an incredibly long time.

Some day when I have more time I'll have to get in to mixing my own chemicals, though. Thanks for the tip!

I printed some more negs on Ilford MG Warmtone (semimatte fiber) last night, and it reminded me just how beautiful that paper is. Wow. I hate the green tone when it comes out of the developer, so toning is borderline mandatory.

 

[brian steinberger]

You should really have a crack at the Dupont thiocarbamide based toners. I bet you'd love them

Marco, where are you purchasing these DuPont toners from? I have never even heard of them. I mix my own thio sepia toners from scratch.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Hi Brian,

I make it from scratch. Raw chemistry from Artcraft.

As I mentioned above, it's a variable sepia toner. The "variable" part comes by altering the alkali in the formula. The more alkaline the toner, the browner the tone. The less alkaline, the yellower. It's a graceful system, and gives you a lot of control over your output. There is also a variable bleach system which accompanies these toners, but I haven't had much luck with that. A standard Potassium Bromide + Potassium Ferricyanide bleach gives me the best results.

For the toners, there are only 4 chemicals needed: Thiocarbamide (Thiourea), Potassium Carbonate, Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide. Of these, care must be taken in handling the Thiocarbamide and the Sodium Hydroxide. What I do is mix a 10% solution of these two chemicals, and use it as a liquid concentrate. That was I'm not handling the dry chemistry on a regular basis. When I do handle the dry chemicals, I wear a suitable repirator, gloves and goggles.

The formula are:

Toner 1
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Sodium Hydroxide 6.0g
Water to make 1000ml

Toner 2
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Sodium Carbonate 45.0g
Water to make 1000ml

Toner 3
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Potassium Carbonate 48.0g
Water to make 1000ml

The bleach that I use is:
Potassium Ferricyanide 22.0g
Potassium Bromide 25.0g
Water to make 1000ml

The 10% solution of Thiocarbamide is brilliant, as I'll just pour out 30ml of it and I'm set.

The toner once made lasts for a few days in my opinion, but results start to change as time goes on. I usually make enough for a session and pitch it.

This system was designed for the Dupont Varigam papers, but works well with anything. I particularly like Toner 1 on IMG IV, and IMG WT.

 

[cliveh]

If you want a good sepia toned image use a sulfide toner. Do this outside to avoid the smell, but the tone is excellent.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Clive,

Sodium Sulphide gives one tone, the variable sepia toner gives many. I can replicate the tone achieved with Sodium Sulphide, no worries. It's not hard. And to do it without the odour makes it all the more appealing.

 

[brian steinberger]

Hi Brian,

I make it from scratch. Raw chemistry from Artcraft.

As I mentioned above, it's a variable sepia toner. The "variable" part comes by altering the alkali in the formula. The more alkaline the toner, the browner the tone. The less alkaline, the yellower. It's a graceful system, and gives you a lot of control over your output. There is also a variable bleach system which accompanies these toners, but I haven't had much luck with that. A standard Potassium Bromide + Potassium Ferricyanide bleach gives me the best results.

For the toners, there are only 4 chemicals needed: Thiocarbamide (Thiourea), Potassium Carbonate, Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide. Of these, care must be taken in handling the Thiocarbamide and the Sodium Hydroxide. What I do is mix a 10% solution of these two chemicals, and use it as a liquid concentrate. That was I'm not handling the dry chemistry on a regular basis. When I do handle the dry chemicals, I wear a suitable repirator, gloves and goggles.

The formula are:

Toner 1
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Sodium Hydroxide 6.0g
Water to make 1000ml

Toner 2
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Sodium Carbonate 45.0g
Water to make 1000ml

Toner 3
Thiocarbamide 3.0g
Potassium Carbonate 48.0g
Water to make 1000ml

The bleach that I use is:
Potassium Ferricyanide 22.0g
Potassium Bromide 25.0g
Water to make 1000ml

The 10% solution of Thiocarbamide is brilliant, as I'll just pour out 30ml of it and I'm set.

The toner once made lasts for a few days in my opinion, but results start to change as time goes on. I usually make enough for a session and pitch it.

This system was designed for the Dupont Varigam papers, but works well with anything. I particularly like Toner 1 on IMG IV, and IMG WT.

Great information Marco! This formula is in Tim Rudman's "The Toning Book," listed as "Defender" bleaches and toners (pg. 181). There are two other bleaches listed as well. I am intrigued with this formula and never gave it a good look in the Toning Book. I've always just made my bleach with potassium ferri and potassium bromide and the toner made with 10g thiocarbamide per liter and adjusted the sodium hydroxide anywhere from 3-10g per liter, dependent upon the color I'm after. I'm interested now in trying formulas such as this where more sodium hydroxide is used than thio per liter. That's interesting and something I've never tried.

 

[Philippe Grunchec]

Don't forget TETENAL Triponaltoner!