Seperate Fixer and Hardner

[bsdunek]

I want to do some sepia and selenium toning, and what I seem to hear is that the prints should be initially fixed with non-hardening fixer. I am currently using Kentmere Liquid Rapid Fixer with Hardener.
My question is: can I just mix the fixer without the hardener and use for non-hardenening fixer? Additionally, can I mix the seperate hardener and treat the prints with this post processing?
I'm not sure that I need hardener for prints.
Has anybody used the Kentmer fixer this way? Opinions please?

 

[T Hoskinson]

The Kentmere advertising states that you can use this fixer without the hardener for fixing prints. A look at the Kentmere MSDS supports this (link below).

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kentmere/Kentmere_Rapid_Fixer.pdf

If you are concerned make a test print and fix it in the Kentmere_Rapid_Fixer A solution, wash it and tone it.

Prints fixed without hardener will wash faster than those fixed with a hardener. I would also expect Prints fixed without hardener to tone better.

Here is what Ilford has to say on the subject:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006211122422785.pdf

"Fixing should be thorough to prevent staining. Two
bath fixing is preferred, and the use of hardening
fixers is not recommended. The use of a hardening
fixer will make fixing, washing and toning the
prints much more difficult."

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes to the first, generally no to the second. You should not use the hardener in a separate step. The hardener used with fixers is generally compounded differently than a separate hardener. Without knowing the details of the formula it would be hard to say for sure. I hate to say NO absolutely or YES absolutely without some sort of test or knowing the formulation.

PE

 

[bsdunek]

Thanks for the links T Hoskinson. The Kentmere one is over my head so far as chemistry is concerned. I barely made it through college chemistry. In any case, I see the point.
The information from Ilford I hadn't seen, even though I looked at their site. Just missed it, I guess.
Photo Engineer - that's kind of what I thought. I'll just mix some fix without the hardener. Guess I'll buy some non-hardening fix, like the Ilford Rapid Fixer.
Thanks to both of you - I'm on my way down to my darkroom!

 

[CBG]

It seems wasteful, and perhaps ecologically obscene, to obtain fix and hardener, then to simply discard the hardener. There must be fixers that suit anyone's needs that come plain - no hardener. I'm leaning towards just mixing my own.

C

 

[Photo Engineer]

CBG;

TF-4 is one of them.

PE

 

[George Collier]

As PE says, I use TF4, no hardener, washes out more easily than traditional acid fix/hardener. Also, no acid stop, so another chem eliminated.

 

[T Hoskinson]

Me too!

 

[nworth]

Formulas for separate hardeners are out there. They are generally designed as a pre-treatment for film that is about to be subjected to some abuse, but they might work with paper.

Kodak SH-1 formalin hardener
For use on negatives that would be softened by subsequent chemical treatment.
Water 500 ml
Formaldehyde (37%) 10 ml
Sodium carbonate (mono) 6 g
WTM 1 l
Harden film for 3 minutes then rinse. Negatives should then be treated in a fresh acid hardening fixer and washed.

Kodak SH-5 Prehardener (for high temperature processing)
Water 900 ml
6-nitrobenzimidazole nitrate (0.5%) 40 ml
Sodium sulfite (anh) 50 g
Sodium carbonate (mono) 12 g
WTM 1 l
Just before use, add
Formaldehyde (37%) 5 ml
Soak film in prehardener for 10 minutes with moderate agitation. Drain for a few seconds, and rinse. Allows development up to 35C.

Kodak SH-6a hardener
Water 1 l
Calgon 750 ml
Sodium carbonate (mono) 8.8 g
Foraldehyde (37%) 25.5 ml

TH-5 Hardener
Water 750 ml
Glutaraldehyse (25%) 30 ml
Sodium sulfite 20 g
Sodium metaborate 2 g
WTM 1 l
Mix fresh (keeps less than a week).
Use as a prebath for 2 minutes before development when it is necessary to process at high temperature.

You could fix in a non-hardening fixer, tone, and then fix again in a hardening fixer. That assumes that the hardener or fixer would not harm the toned print, which it might.

In general, prints do not need hardening, either with the fix or later. Your best bet is probably to use a non-hardening fixer like TF-4 of F-34, wash, tone, and then just not abuse the surface of the print.