Semi-dupe thread - MF Folder (edit: was "RF") advice

madsox · Apr 30, 2023

Nothing urgent, and I'm not looking for anything specific, but I have the urge to get a decent MF rangefinder that's easy to carry along than my TLR or Fuji 670. Because some times I wish I had something bigger than 35mm to take on a trip or just out for a walk, and variety is good. This is a dupe of a classified ad I just posted, but here I'd like to get opinions about which cameras people like - the only requirements are that it be a folding rangefinder that can used standard 120 film, compact enough to fit into a large jacket pocket (15x25cm or so), and not be so expensive or delicate that I would be afraid to take it on a hike in the woods, for example.

Let the debate continue!!

John Wiegerink · Apr 30, 2023

Any of the Konica Pearl w/rangefinder cameras would get my vote. Second would be the Zeiss Super Ikonta cameras. I have used both and between the two I'd go for the Pearl V, but that's just me.

OAPOli · Apr 30, 2023

I just received a Pearl III. Tuned it up but haven't film-tested yet. It was relatively inexpensive. It's very compact, not much larger or heavier than a Kodak Retina IIa (about 12x11x4.5cm when folded). Feels pretty sturdy when folded but is front heavy when opened.

Ergonomics are okay and typical of this era. Small VF with little eye relief (no bright frame), fast helicoid with tiny grip, manual shutter cocking (no double-exposure prevention), no strap lugs. It grips well since it hinges on the left. Has a coupled RF (short base), automatic film advance and 16 frames per roll.

Neil Morgan · Apr 30, 2023

What size, 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9?
What's your budget? they're a lot of old folders that go for very little money but will most likely need a service. At the other end you have the Fuji GF670/Voigtlander Bessa iii

madsox · Apr 30, 2023

Neil Morgan said:
What size, 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9?
What's your budget? they're a lot of old folders that go for very little money but will most likely need a service. At the other end you have the Fuji GF670/Voigtlander Bessa iii

Good questions. I'm most accustomed to 6x6 and 6x7, but the specific format ... I might like the others for more frames per roll or more "landscapy" compositions. I hope to keep to a budget of "a few hundred $US", so not the more high-end and exotic models.

Alex Varas · Apr 30, 2023

Smaller is Voigtlander Perkeo I or II, zone focus camera. I like how it looks the photos made with this Color Skopar lens.
Next with be one Agfa Isolette with Solinar or Apotar, both really sharp if thatnis what you want.
A bigger league will come with Super Ikontas but heavier as 530/16 versions or 531/16 - 534/16 all of them with coupled rangefinder and winding/counting.

Alex Varas · Apr 30, 2023

If you want landscape go for 6x9, Agfa Record with Apotar or Solinar do really well and they are the lightest 6x9 folders.

abruzzi · Apr 30, 2023

the Konica Pearl III is great, but as a 6x4.5 camera with the film spooling horizontally, it is portait orientation by default. the first two Pearls used red windows. the III has a geared advance on the base that looks ugly but (for me) works very well. The IV looks a bit more modern and has geared advance but without the unsightly wart on the base.

Neil Morgan · Apr 30, 2023

I don't know if many of them made it to the US but one of my favourite 6x9 folders is the British Ensign Selfix 820 - very robust and a great 105mm f3.8 lens

Axelwik · May 1, 2023

I like the old Zeiss Ikon folders with a simple viewfinder (no rangefinder). You have to estimate focus, but they're very compact. Both of mine have an uncoated Tessar, made in the late 1930s, 6x4.5 and 6x6. I use a slip-on Series 6 filter holder and hood.

I also have a Mamiya 6 that's a little newer, and it can be switched between 6x4.5 and 6x6. It has a rangefinder, but has more bulk and weight.

madsox · May 2, 2023

Updating myself a bit, I’ve been doing some reading. And watching some videos. I have a few new parameters I think I want - I’ll list them here and ask for opinions. Are these reasonable? Are they actually important? What cameras does this mean I should be looking at?

1: format - definitely 6x6. Having the 645 option like a few cameras had would be nice, but not too important.
2: lens - still not sure it matters too much which specific lens, but I’d like f/3.5 max aperture, with stop down to f/22
3: shutter - I do want to get a wider range of speeds, to 1/500. Is Compur really better?
4: rangefinder - yes, I want one. It doesn’t need to be coupled to the lens. “Larger” viewfinder better, I wear glasses so even a little bit helps.
5: frame counter? Nice but not necessary
6: double exposure prevention - good. Ability to override also nice, did any cameras actually have that? So I can live with or without that

I’m sure there is more. But thank you all in advance!

Bruce Butterfield · May 3, 2023

madsox said:
Updating myself a bit, I’ve been doing some reading. And watching some videos. I have a few new parameters I think I want - I’ll list them here and ask for opinions. Are these reasonable? Are they actually important? What cameras does this mean I should be looking at?

1: format - definitely 6x6. Having the 645 option like a few cameras had would be nice, but not too important.
2: lens - still not sure it matters too much which specific lens, but I’d like f/3.5 max aperture, with stop down to f/22
3: shutter - I do want to get a wider range of speeds, to 1/500. Is Compur really better?
4: rangefinder - yes, I want one. It doesn’t need to be coupled to the lens. “Larger” viewfinder better, I wear glasses so even a little bit helps.
5: frame counter? Nice but not necessary
6: double exposure prevention - good. Ability to override also nice, did any cameras actually have that? So I can live with or without that

I’m sure there is more. But thank you all in advance!

Most folders with a mechanism to prevent double exposures work by preventing actuation of a shutter release button on the top cover until the film is at least partially wound on. Usually this shutter release button couples to the lens shutter via a simple lever; it’s simple to trip the lens shutter with a finger to override the above mechanism.

Bruce Butterfield · May 3, 2023

madsox said:
Good questions. I'm most accustomed to 6x6 and 6x7, but the specific format ... I might like the others for more frames per roll or more "landscapy" compositions. I hope to keep to a budget of "a few hundred $US", so not the more high-end and exotic models.

I think in this price range you are looking at TLRs or folders. I happen to like and shoot both types. If you want a large viewfinder stick with TLRs — there is a learning curve but they are typically more robust than folders (no bellows or struts), simple to focus and frame, and easier to get serviced. Folders are more compact but have relatively tiny viewfinders and typically those with rangefinders (coupled or uncoupled) are heavier and more expensive.

If you can you should shoot a roll or two in each type to see what you prefer before committing; both types can yield gorgeous photos but the ergonomics are very different.

Bruce Butterfield · May 3, 2023

Whoops — just reread the initial post; you don’t want another TLR. I can recommend the Mamiya Six Automat (unique focus mechanism, wonderful lens) and the Voigtlander Perkeo I (zone focus but the lightest and most compact 6x6 folder I know of; get the Skopar lens variant and avoid the Perkeo II which has a truly awful film advance system.) Zeiss folders are also wonderful; too many models to list here.

M-88 · May 3, 2023

madsox said:
Updating myself a bit, I’ve been doing some reading. And watching some videos. I have a few new parameters I think I want - I’ll list them here and ask for opinions. Are these reasonable? Are they actually important? What cameras does this mean I should be looking at?

1: format - definitely 6x6. Having the 645 option like a few cameras had would be nice, but not too important.
2: lens - still not sure it matters too much which specific lens, but I’d like f/3.5 max aperture, with stop down to f/22
3: shutter - I do want to get a wider range of speeds, to 1/500. Is Compur really better?
4: rangefinder - yes, I want one. It doesn’t need to be coupled to the lens. “Larger” viewfinder better, I wear glasses so even a little bit helps.
5: frame counter? Nice but not necessary
6: double exposure prevention - good. Ability to override also nice, did any cameras actually have that? So I can live with or without that

I’m sure there is more. But thank you all in advance!

With these specs, "Mess Ikonta" comes on mind. Or Zeiss 524/16. It has an UNCOUPLED rangefinder and some iterations came with Tessar that's f/3.5.

Another, more expensive option is Super Ikonta, there are countless models of it, but there are several with COUPLED rangefinder and fast enough lens. Like 532/16

guangong · May 3, 2023

For being compact and solidly constructed, but heavy, with a superior lens erecting mechanism nothing tops a Super Ikonta B. The rangefinder is ingenious and robust. Get a postwar camera with coated Tessar lens.

madsox · May 3, 2023

Bruce Butterfield said:
Whoops — just reread the initial post; you don’t want another TLR. I can recommend the Mamiya Six Automat (unique focus mechanism, wonderful lens) and the Voigtlander Perkeo I (zone focus but the lightest and most compact 6x6 folder I know of; get the Skopar lens variant and avoid the Perkeo II which has a truly awful film advance system.) Zeiss folders are also wonderful; too many models to list here.

Folders, yes, thanks for the replies - the Mamiya automat, that’s the later version with coupled rangefinder, right?

Some of the Zeiss models definitely seem good for me, and maybe Agfa Isolettes? Although I can‘t see if any of them had a shutter like the Compur, they all seem limited to 1/200 sec with f/4.5 lenses.

madsox · May 3, 2023

M-88 said:
With these specs, "Mess Ikonta" comes on mind. Or Zeiss 524/16. It has an UNCOUPLED rangefinder and some iterations came with Tessar that's f/3.5.

Another, more expensive option is Super Ikonta, there are countless models of it, but there are several with COUPLED rangefinder and fast enough lens. Like 532/16

This seems to be what I’m finding - the mid-range Zeiss models. Some with nice Solinar or Tessar lenses, synchro-compur shutters, X sync even for flash…

4season · May 3, 2023

madsox said:
Some of the Zeiss models definitely seem good for me, and maybe Agfa Isolettes? Although I can‘t see if any of them had a shutter like the Compur, they all seem limited to 1/200 sec with f/4.5 lenses.

Isolette III (and probably other models) could be optioned in a number of ways:

Lenses (from lowest to highest-priced): Agnar (3-element), Apotar (3-element, rare earth glass), Solinar (4-element Tessar-type)
Shutter: (ditto) Vario/Pronto, Prontor-SV, Compur. More money buys you more shutter speeds + self-timer.

My Isolette III is outfitted with Pronto shutter and Apotar lens. And for the $50 that I paid, I got no complaints.

P C Headland · May 11, 2023

A Super Fujica-6 is a good option - coupled rangefinder, not too heavy, decent lens and a good (for its age) viewfinder. They seem to be much more readily available now than a few years ago.

guangong · May 11, 2023

The weakness of all folders, with the exception of Zeiss folders, is the lens erecting mechanisms. This includes my now overpriced Fuji GF670. The only other “folder” with no potential lens erecting problem is my Makina 67, since lens doesn’t fold but slides in and out.

madsox · May 11, 2023

P C Headland said:
A Super Fujica-6 is a good option - coupled rangefinder, not too heavy, decent lens and a good (for its age) viewfinder. They seem to be much more readily available now than a few years ago.

Oh, that does look nice. I didn't even know about the Fujica (or had forgotten, both are possible).

Donald Qualls · May 11, 2023

guangong said:
Makina 67, since lens doesn’t fold but slides in and out.

This is also true of Baby Speed, Baby Crown, and Century Graphic MF press cameras, though they aren't as compact as what we usually consider "folders".

madsox · May 11, 2023

guangong said:
The weakness of all folders, with the exception of Zeiss folders, is the lens erecting mechanisms. This includes my now overpriced Fuji GF670. The only other “folder” with no potential lens erecting problem is my Makina 67, since lens doesn’t fold but slides in and out.

That and the bellows, of course, as they age. You can't fling these cameras around like little disposable Instamatics, and they need a little care over time, but I don't mind that.

Axelwik · May 11, 2023

madsox said:
That and the bellows, of course, as they age. You can't fling these cameras around like little disposable Instamatics, and they need a little care over time, but I don't mind that.

Judging by the age of some of mine from the 1930s, they're more durable than a lot of cameras that came after. Of course anything will need a bit of care over time.

Semi-dupe thread - MF Folder (edit: was "RF") advice

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