Selling prints on ebay

jd callow · Jan 5, 2005

Ray Bidegain said:
I do not sell extras or work prints, I sell the real ones.

Extra prints as in those that didn't sell at a show or were printed inaddition to what was required for a commision or project == real or the same as a final print.

Work prints are those that are not the equal to the final? If so I agree, otherwise you are offering a distinction without a difference.

David H. Bebbington · Jan 5, 2005

First, thanks to all who have contributed. I hope no one has taken offense at what I have said (I don't think they have) and I fully acknowledge that anyone can take any approach whatsoever to sales which they choose.

Let me, however, make a couple of points. I suppose I can "afford" to take a long view and work on building reputation rather than generating sales in the short term. To put it another way, this was something which I factored in as a necessary evil when I decided to make a return to photography. I fully respect people who need to generate income as they travel the road to fame and fortune, but there is the danger that in trying to serve the low-end market you are pressured, whether you realise it or not, into delivering the kind of sentimentality (albeit in technically superlative form) which this market demands. In doing this, you are automatically setting limits to how far you can progress, since the high end of the art market demands quite the opposite, work with an edge and a generous helping of a f*** you attitude. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong), this is not what e-bay buyers are looking for.
As regards the value put on time, Jorge implies that certain photographers have an inflated view of their worth. Above and beyond the need for a certain level of income to simply pay for everyday living, my target for earnings is simply the amount that I earn now as a freelance writer/translator/editor working in the corporate sector - I have never been a fan of the idea that true artists starve in garrets, and with advancing age this idea appeals even less.
To put this in concrete terms, I would like to be in a position like that of a photographer like Andreas Gursky, who shoots urban landscapes on an 8x10" in color and has the shots printed up to huge size by a lab to be sold for $150,000 a time! I may never achieve this, but this is my aspiration - in my view, very little else is worthwhile. I NEVER work cheap - if I feel something is worthwhile and won't pay a full price, I will give work away rather than sell it cheap.
Enough for now - may the dialog continue!

Regards,

David

roteague · Jan 5, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
I NEVER work cheap - if I feel something is worthwhile and won't pay a full price, I will give work away rather than sell it cheap.

David, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. I wonder however, if there isn't a middle ground. I personally don't want to see my work for less than I think it is worth - I've been doing a survey of prices for my work to see what the level should be. However, I do want to provide an outlet. Non-traditional means could be to produce posters, which are well received in a tourist area like mine.

Ray Bidegain · Jan 5, 2005

All this talk about price has me thinking.

It seems like I hear about photographers who spend a great deal of time working out the details of their pricing. They spend time making up plans for the way the prints will go up as the edition sells, planning the size of the limited edition etc.

The problem is that they are not the only ones in charge of the process of deciding what the item is worth. You can decide all you want that your prints are worth 400.00 or even 150,000.00 but if no person wants them and will willing to pay that price then the price you set is just a number.

If selling your personal work is a goal then you need to step back and see how you fit in the scheme of things. You can not sit at home and plan to sell your work for lots of money, and have it happen. Ebay has been interesting to me in that the auction is way to see what a big sample of interested parties think your print is worth to them. If they do not sell for 50.00 in might not be because ebay sucks, it just might be a little closer to home than that.

I think Jorge and George also make a good point in that for me working on ebay has me doing a lot of photography. I could hang a 60 print show tomorrow, I could hang a show of 60 new prints a couple of times a year. Most photographers I know of that do well selling their work make allot of photographs, they work everyday on it, some make so many negatives it becomes impossible to print them all. I think Weston made something like 1500 negatives on the leaves of grass trip alone. How many of us are that prolific these days. It is my feeling that if you want your work to grow you need work through it and on it.

Ray Bidegain

georgep · Jan 5, 2005

"there is the danger that in trying to serve the low-end market you are pressured, whether you realise it or not, into delivering the kind of sentimentality (albeit in technically superlative form) which this market demands"

David,

I have not found anything offensive in this thread. Personally, I am not interested in the road to fame and fortune. I believe the opposite is true in terms of pressure to produce a certain kind of work. If I were getting $150,000.00 per print, I would feel pressured. At $50.00 per print I feel free to do whatever I want and I value that freedom. There is no question that certain kinds of prints (usually based on subject matter) are more popular on eBay than other kinds of prints, and probably more popular in galleries as well. I dont let that dictate to me what I make. If the prices were much higher it would be easier to be seduced.

My attitude will never be f*** you! Its more like thank you. Ultimately I dont care about fame or fortune, what is cutting edge, whats hot, etc. I want to make the best photographs I can and then let go of it. Ill be dead soon enough and it wont matter what my bank account status is. What will remain is the prints, so I put my energy there.

George

roteague · Jan 5, 2005

Ray Bidegain said:
If selling your personal work is a goal then you need to step back and see how you fit in the scheme of things. You can not sit at home and plan to sell your work for lots of money, and have it happen. Ebay has been interesting to me in that the auction is way to see what a big sample of interested parties think your print is worth to them.

I've given this a lot of thought myself. I think a lot of us are getting caught up in this idea that you can't do both - eBay and gallery sales. It depends upon a lot of factors, your local market, your images, etc. For example, I love traveling to Australia, but the local market for photos from Australia is practically non existent - I live in Hawaii, which is what sells here. But, I would love to sell some of my Australia images (I'm working on a series documenting the Murray River, and the MacDonnell Range).

Jorge · Jan 5, 2005

Daniel Grenier said:
Jorge said:

.....when I was with the guild.... QUOTE]

Somewhat off-topic, Jorge, but do you care to discuss your leaving the (Contact Printers) Guild and flying solo? Whatever your reasons, good luck to you as "alternative_view".

As a matter of interest, I just pulled all platinum prints now offered on ebay and there are now 58 listing with only 7 bids totalling perhaps a couple hundred bucks. Minimal enthusiasm all around. Sad to report.

As a buyer, I find ebay terrific. I mean, I now have a dozen or so prints bought on ebay which cost me less than $600 total. OTOH, I bought an 8x10 contact print this summer from a "well known" photographer for $750 not on ebay but directly from the Artist. Ten-twenty years from now, who knows what these will all be worth but I doubt very much my ebay prints will be anywhere near the other one or have increased proportionnally to it.

I don't know.... As a photographer/artist I'd be worried of getting "stuck" in ebay mode, i.e $50 a print, which is (IMO as a photographer) quite simply an unacceptable sale price.

I'd be curious to see how many "$50 ebay photographers" will rise (have risen) way past that and go on to sell their work 10-20-50 times that.

Selling on ebay may be a springboard. But a springboard to what? Fame? Oblivion? The poor house? I guess only time will tell the merits (or lack of) of selling on ebay.

Good discussion topic, though.

Click to expand...

I left the guild due to personal disagreements with the creator of the group. We had agreed to charge shipping at cost, and unfortunatelly Mexican mail is very expensive. So this guy started to question my shipping charges, he demanded an explanation, which I sent to him in private and then he went on to post this in our public forum. On one hand he said "I am not accusing Jorge of any wrong doing" on another he went on and on about honesty and the "reputation" of the guild. After the third time I had to explain myself I decided I did not get into it so I could have a "boss" demanding explanations, nor was I going to stand having my integrity questioned by the likes of him. So I told him to kiss my ass and I left. As I told one of the members, my boss paid me a lot of money when I worked in the US so he could demmand explanations and tell me what to do...
Having said that, I have to say I bear no animosity to the rest of the group, they are all a bunch of great guys doing fabulous work. With some I have forged great friendships, I have Gerhard comming in February to stay for a week so we can go shoot. Francesco has an open invitation as well. So I gained more than what I put in, in that respect.
Flying solo will be an up hill battle, having no feedback (all of the previous one went to the contact_prints group) will make it harder, but then as I have said. If my work is good enough it will sell eventually, it will just take longer now, as long as I am having fun doing it, it is a worth while endeavour.

David, certainly no offense was taken. Beleive me when I tell you you are not alone dreaming on being able to sell $150000 prints. We just disagree on the way to go about it. Like you I dont think an artist should be starving, but OTOH, we are not saving lives here.....let put some perspective on the worth of our time. In the end if making prints is all about money for you, then I can see why you chose the path you did. For me is more of a middle ground, I love getting that pay pal payment, but I also love getting an e mail telling me how pleased people are with prints.

Jorge · Jan 5, 2005

BTW, coincidentally today I just got grumpy's print. I am so pleased with this print, even if it is a disco print. It is absolutely wonderful! at $50 it was a bargain!

jd callow · Jan 5, 2005

jorge,
I would have let you sell your prints under my ID lots of positive feedback, the best moniker on ebay and no boss.

Jorge · Jan 5, 2005

mrcallow said:
jorge,
I would have let you sell your prints under my ID lots of positive feedback, the best moniker on ebay and no boss.

Thanks John! ..... you are right about the best moniker..

BTW, anybody here that frequents Starbucks should forego the java for one day and buy one of mrcallow's prints...trust me, at his prices they are worth 10 times more...

Sjixxxy · Jan 5, 2005

Ray Bidegain said:
Last week I had one print that was looked at by over 3000 people. No gallery can touch that.

Got to admit, thats a nice chunk of eyes for what was probably what, a $0.10 insertion fee? My website averages about 45 visits per day. If only 10% of those 3000 were to follow a link to the website in the auction posting over a week long auction, I'd have doubled my site traffic for that week. I think someone who finds the site while browsing for prints on eBay would be more likely to pick something else out off the site and make contact to purchase then a casual browser.

wm blunt · Jan 5, 2005

I guess I might as well jump in here too, as I sell my work on ebay. I have had my work in galleries and some years better than others but I had to mat and frame the prints, which I hate doing and the gallery took 50% of the sales. Most of my work sold for about $250 so I got $125. When I figured my cost of matting and framing I got considerably less. One year I had a nice corporate sale of 18 prints at one time but that was a one time thing. That gallery finally went out of business and I started selling on ebay. The Levin Gallery in Monterey,Ca had been selling my work for a few years and when Russ Levin started selling on ebay he sold my work there also. He recommended I start selling my work there myself and helped me get started. I have no "Grand Illusions" of becoming a great Photographic Artist, I just want to make photographs and if people buy that's great, if not, I'll still be making photographs. I have already surpassed what I ever thought I would achieve, not by how many prints I have sold but by who has thought enough of my work to purchase it. Bostick & Sullivan of Santa Fe purchased one of my prints and it hangs in their home. When I met William Crawford, the author of The Keepers of Light" in Santa Fe he also asked to purchase a print.
I am not trying to make a living with my photographs but is nice to have it pay for itself and ebay does that for me. After 35 years working for someone else, now I do what I want at my own pace. It would be nice to sell for higher prices but for now I'm content.

TPPhotog · Jan 5, 2005

Interesting thread so thought I'd jump in with my thoughts.

The way I feel about it is who as a collector in their right mind is going to pay real money for art when the artist is still alive and is going to continue to produce who knows how much work in the future.

If all you want to do is make a living out of the prints then like any other widget you choose your market and take your chance. So somewhere along the way you need to decide if your bargain basement or top end cheese and wine party.

On the other hand if you love your photography and want to expose your work to a larger circle of people and in the process make some money as a spin-off, then selling your work through Ebay and Galleries .... and even local craft fairs seems to be a pleasant way of spending part of your life.

A print (or any other widget) is only worth what someone will reach into their pocket and take out, be it cash or a bubblegum.

jd callow · Jan 5, 2005

Jorge said:
Thanks John! ..... you are right about the best moniker..

BTW, anybody here that frequents Starbucks should forego the java for one day and buy one of mrcallow's prints...trust me, at his prices they are worth 10 times more...

Thanks Jorge. Although, I have been able to fool people into paying 50x what I get on ebay.

David said:
First, thanks to all who have contributed. I hope no one has taken offense at what I have said (I don't think they have) and I fully acknowledge that anyone can take any approach whatsoever to sales which they choose.

I did take some offense. Maybe I need more coffee, less snow or thicker skin.

I have had good success selling through one man shows and personal contacts. I also have plans to re enter the art market on multiple fronts, ebay being the easiest, but possibly not the most prestigious. I guess I'm a little sensitive to posts that seem to indicate that the poster has greater business acumen or that their ethics are higher or that they are producing *real* art. All this is in my tiny mind and I apologize if I have been retaliatory.

best regards,

jdc

David H. Bebbington · Jan 5, 2005

mrcallow said:
I guess I'm a little sensitive to posts that seem to indicate that the poster has greater business acumen or that their ethics are higher or that they are producing *real* art.

I am glad that you appreciate this was not my intention. I have, however, found recent postings very valuable in helping me form a rounded impression of what e-bay can (and cannot) offer. The internet in general is obviously a very powerful medium and it is very useful to compare notes on how to use it. It is tantalizing to think that Amazon can sell millions of books without customers having a chance to browse - if only that could be extrapolated and applied to photographs, and internet selling could be taken somewhat up-market!

Regards,

David

TPPhotog · Jan 5, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
I am glad that you appreciate this was not my intention. I have, however, found recent postings very valuable in helping me form a rounded impression of what e-bay can (and cannot) offer. The internet in general is obviously a very powerful medium and it is very useful to compare notes on how to use it. It is tantalizing to think that Amazon can sell millions of books without customers having a chance to browse - if only that could be extrapolated and applied to photographs, and internet selling could be taken somewhat up-market!

Regards,

David

I could be very wrong but for me Ebay is the equivalent of a street market (or boot sale as someone has already said) and Amazon is more like a book store. Also books are easier to sell due to reviews in the media and many books are disposable once read costing very little. Photographs are in many ways a luxary item as with anything that hangs on a wall. I'm sure we all shop were we enjoy to and can afford.

Btw When I have the free cash I'll be shopping on Ebay for prints by many of those here which are stunning to my mind. I know I won't be paying as much as what they are probably worth to me but there's no way I can afford gallery prices.

ann · Jan 5, 2005

as a buyer of several prints on ebay, i will chime it. I checked out the "Guilds" website as people talked about it here on APUG.

i bought several images, two from Jorge, one from George and it is a bit embarrassing as to what i paid for them, however, it is what i could afford. Then i have been showing them to my students and encouraging them to check out the work.
Not because it is Cheap, but because if is fine work and i believe photographers should collect photos and hang them on their walls. They are in fact beautiful.

Many collectors invest in prints which is a different mentality. Many are hoping to make a lot of money somewhere down the line. I have several Ansel Adams images that were very inexpensive and have no intention of ever sellling them at any price. happened to know about this work before the dealers took over. Ansel never sold a piece for more than 400 dollars, it is the dealers that have made the money. Not everyone that loves photography has deep pockets and even those who do may sometimes surprise you. Elton John who collects photographs lives part time here and he buys all types of work, including student work, which is very usual.

I think one of the problems with collecting photography is that people don't understand the medium. My "uncle Henry " has a great expensive camera, he can just make me one of "those". That is a tough barrier to over come.

Some of us collect images that make us smile and take to our hearts, does this make them less valuable because we were able to purchase them on ebay at an affordable price? I think not !

We each need to travel our own road.

etriplett · Jan 5, 2005

Guess I'll join the fray...

I think that we may be a bit too early to judge what eBay will become to the art world. There are a couple of things I'd like to comment on.

1. I think that is a great avenue for unknowns to get exposure for their work.

2. It is a great place for art speculators (a la Elton John) to buy when the artist is unknown.

3. Seeing a piece resold can indicate some popularity, look at work by a certain person known for painting light (not that I consider that art.) It does show that there is some value in the work.

4. I think that it is up to the artist to decide where to draw the line when it comes to the value of the work. Maybe, as one person has already said, you only sell smaller versions of a print or lithographs or maybe you only sell your best, biggest, prints. Sort of an ethical decision.

Comments, thoughts?

kjsphoto · Jan 5, 2005

I want to thank everyone for the replies and responses, as it was very informative.

I was planning on selling prints sizes no larger than 8x10 (just the print no matting or framing ) on eBay and if someone wanted a larger size or wanted it matted or framed they could buy from my site.

I have had stuff in galleries before and they take 40-50% so for me if I sell an 8x10 on eBay for $50 just the prints I am coming out ahead of what the gallery would give me as I had to mat and frame the print for them which cost more.

Anyway that is my thinking and I hope it is not too flawed. I just need to make a return so I can continue to do what I love as having to fork out money out of pocket and have prints just sit in my box seem like a waste to me and if I can put a smile on people faces with a nice print all the better.

Thank you again to everyone fro all the advice and feedback as it was very helpful.

Kev

bmac · Jan 5, 2005

Kevin, I would seriously think abotu matting and bagging your prints. to me, selling loose prints just doesn't look right. It doesnt cost much to buy premade prints and poly bags and you have the added protection of a matte during shipping. Just my thoughts.

mark · Jan 5, 2005

A few months ago there was a thread on pricing of a portrait session. A comment was made there about "bottom feeders", people who did not have the money to dish out thousands on a portrait. And it was implied that the less wealthy have no right to a fine portrait. The same arguments there are being made here. There will always be the elitist who feels their time is worth the moon, while others are in it for the love of the medium and just want to cover materials so they can shoot more. Collectors are more likely to go to a gallery to view a print in reality before they buy it. Ebay is for the rest of us who buy for the love of the photograph not the future worth of that photograph.

It is funny to read people's thoughts when they talk about Ebay being cheap. The prints there are often out of my range. I would love to have an original print from Jorge or Brian, I'ld stick it next to my original callow(Since he did not sign the prints he sold, I wrote peachbutt in the border). I would not have those prints if callow was not ditching his cast offs and extras. I bought them because they are beautiful images.

Ann
I love your last thought, very well written.

roteague · Jan 5, 2005

bmac said:
Kevin, I would seriously think abotu matting and bagging your prints. to me, selling loose prints just doesn't look right. It doesnt cost much to buy premade prints and poly bags and you have the added protection of a matte during shipping. Just my thoughts.

YES!! If I wanted loose prints, I would go to the drugstore and order some 4x6 prints. Fine Art should be presented in the best possible light, otherwise, why sell it.

georgep · Jan 5, 2005

Well said Ann.

Since this is APUG Ill add this. One of the goals of the CPG is to educate folks about analog photography. It is education through prints. Buyers get to see and own a traditional old-fashioned, hand made darkroom print. Most people are aware of photographs through reproductions in books and magazines and are not aware of how an original contact print in platinum/palladium or silver chloride looks. There is a danger of a dumbing down of the masses to believe that digital is the future and analog is on the way out. Do buyers see the difference? I hope so.

To quote Michael A. Smith (paraphrased): The intrinsic value of a photograph is not its commercial value.

The cost of Diane Arbuss Identical Twins: $478,00.400

The cost of Edward Westons The Breast: $299,200.00

The cost of Robert Mapplethorpes Calla Lily: $242,700.00

The cost of a CPG print on eBay: priceless

George

kjsphoto · Jan 5, 2005

bmac said:
Kevin, I would seriously think about matting and bagging your prints. to me, selling loose prints just doesn't look right. It doesnt cost much to buy premade prints and poly bags and you have the added protection of a matte during shipping. Just my thoughts.

What is the best way to ship them then? I was planning on using priority mail envelopes in a poly bag with a mat board cut to the same size of the bag to give it support for shipping. Bt it I matt the 8x10 images I would have about an 11x14 mat. What is the best way to ship these?

Also I have to cut each mat because I either crop or use different formats but it is really no big deal.

Thanks again,

Kev

bmac · Jan 5, 2005

Fopr 11x14 prints, I send them in a flat priority mail box.

Selling prints on ebay

jd callow

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David H. Bebbington

roteague

Ray Bidegain

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Jorge

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Sjixxxy

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jd callow

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David H. Bebbington

TPPhotog

ann

etriplett

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bmac

mark

roteague

georgep

kjsphoto

bmac

Selling prints on ebay

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