Selling negatives to "regretful" models.

something similar happened to me ONCE.

A girl who had posed for me "in the altogether" heard that I had posted one of the images to a forum. She heard the term "on the web" and went absolutely ballistic.
Without any consideration of the work ... I did not consider it to be a "nude"; the only body parts visible were hands and feet - she could not even be identified ... She cut me off - would NOT return my calls or communicate in any way. Even trying to contact her through her friends was useless. She *never* even looked at the print of that particular image I tried to send her. Work from that session - much "peppier" - had been exhibited in galleries - she had seen that work and approved. She was an experienced - many years - figure model for Life Classes in the various art organizations in the area.

I had paid her for her work- and had the usual "Model Release", which would be an effective defense against an "Invasion of Privacy" law suit.
So - I'm covered legally - what is left is a moral and ethical question.
I've HAD to hold true to the principle of "Not being the cause of grief to anyone."

I've pulled the majority of her work, with a few exceptions - and those were three of the images having been exhibited in galleries. *ALL* of her work was removed from any and all web locations, and none will be posted again. That is the best I can do.

This situation is different - in my case there was no demand for the return of ALL images - nude or not.
Considering the circumstances cited - and a lot would depend on the personalities and attitudes of those involved - I might try to discuss the model's - and her husband's concerns - and try to negotiate..
Selling the negatives to them -- I don't think so ... If they were as offended by their content as they claim to be, I would wonder why they would not consider their destruction to be ideal.
On the most basic level - this is still would be *my* work - and I think I'd hold on to it - whether or not I displayed it. As souvenirs - or for future use/ reference -- speculation that attitudes *might* change...

The Copyright Laws would apply. The "creator" of the work holds the copyright unless expressly transferred. The negatives - or any other physical artifacts - really have nothing to do with it.

Don, I can understand your point, but that still doesn't make the case for giving away the negatives as opposed to destroying them. If she has no plans to reprint the negs, then she has no need for them, and if she does have plans to reprint the negs, she has no right to them.

Shredding protects all parties equally and should satisfy the legitimate "reputation" concerns on both sides (i.e., the reputation of the photographer as someone who produces quality work and the reputation of the model as a person of modesty, if that is a personal concern).

David A. Goldfarb said:

Don, I can understand your point, but that still doesn't make the case for giving away the negatives as opposed to destroying them. If she has no plans to reprint the negs, then she has no need for them, and if she does have plans to reprint the negs, she has no right to them.

Shredding protects all parties equally and should satisfy the legitimate "reputation" concerns on both sides (i.e., the reputation of the photographer as someone who produces quality work and the reputation of the model as a person of modesty, if that is a personal concern).

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David,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was making a point for returning the negs...I was making a point for not retaining them. I agree that shredding them would be the preferable remedy.

I think that this is a point that one has an opportunity to choose between whether to assert one's "rights" or to not cause undue and unnecessary distress. In my experience, these things have a tendency to come back and revisit us in ways that we can not immediately see. Robert made mention of bad karma...what karma are we creating for our future?

People make unfounded allegations all of the time.

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Ah, yes. But 'unfounded allegations' are still very effective. It doesn't have to be a proven fact for people to believe it. And you know how people love to believe the worst.

See, to me the problem is this -

If you just "give in" because it is easiest, that leaves you open to abuse.

I did nothing wrong here. So why should I give up my property because some guy with an inferiority complex doesn't feel right about something his girlfriend did way before she met him?

By that logic, I would own none of my work. Take a street photo - the city can ask for the negs. Take a photo in my house - the company that rents it to me can ask for the negs. Take a picture in the national forest - Smokey The Freakin' Bear can ask for the negs.

Nope. Bad precident.

In that case, Don, I think we're basically in agreement. I agree that if the subject doesn't want the photos distributed that in most cases, it's best to minimize the unpleasantness and maintain one's friendships and reputation as a flexible person, but at the same time without incurring undue risk.

Have a neg burning party with the gal and the monkey. End of problem.

Another way to think about this is to ask whether an action or inaction would hurt me or people around me. If so, don't do it. I would give them to her.

Greg

See, I disagree though that his would "hurt" them.

It only hurts them because they are being unreasonable.

Again, by that logic, there is no standard of reasonable behavior.

"It hurts me that you won't buy me a new Leica."

By your standard you MUST buy me a new Leica now.

There is no difference. I am in now way acting in malice, or even...acting at all! No distribution is going on. No publishing.

And yet, I am the bad guy by your logic.

How does that work?

Robert, why dont you try meeting them half way. You stated you would not mind giving the nudes back, and these are probably the shots that concern them the most. Tell them you wish to keep the other shots for future progress evaluation and that the nudes will be destroyed in their presence.

Think about it, you are going to school to be a photographer, you dont need anybody out there bad mouthing you, even if it is through no fault of your own.

IMO you are stressing too much about this, if these are the best shots you have ever taken, then by all means tell them NO! but if your evaluations merits destroying some of them to keep a friendship, then IMO both of you will win and those are the best kind of negotiations....good luck bubba...

This guy sounds like a real hothead. If this doesn't break up their potential marriage then something else will. If you give him the negs, and then they break up, where are you then? Never give negs away. Keep them or destroy them or give them a bunch of fake copy negs, but don't give away real negs.

Good luck.

I too made the suggestion to give her the film, but I did not really mean so she could print it, I was thinking the destroyed film.

But the thing that I am saying is maybe Robert needs to look at his work with a little perspective. Although I have not seen these images I have looked at the photographs he has posted on his site and it looks to me as though he is in the learning stages of developing his craft and vision. Finding volunteer models to practice with is a great thing but keep in mind it is a learning experience for both parties. I don't really think these photographs have a great value beyond the people involved in making them. I do not think it will hurt anything to move on and keep developing his vision and refining what he is trying to say with his photography no matter who has, or prints the negatives. As far as someone else printing bad prints. I think most of us have experienced that with prints we made ourselves early on. We make what we think is a wonderful print of our best work only to see it later on, and be surprised at how bad it really was.

I often see photographers spending great quantities of time effort and materials planning their limited editions when it is clear that the editions will be limited mostly by the photographs themselves. So my recommendation to lighten up, see your work as not only a work in progress but also a journey in learning. See this event for what it is and move on the the next learning step. As your vision and craft evolve I think this sort of thing will be much less likely happen.

Ray Bidegain

Robert,

You are not the "bad guy." I am suggesting that you be magnanimous. That way you are the big person. He may be the petty one here.
I've been through enough to know that some things are not worth having to look over your shoulder forever. Also, I am not saying to run from every situation. I personally am not afraid to confront someone. Having a law degree and a considerable amount of martial arts skill, nothing scares me. Its a matter wisdom. A person can be right but still lose.

Greg

Robert, it sounds to me like your decision is made. So, I'll just say that whatever your decision, stick to it with conviction. Best of luck, and I hope it all turns out well!

- CJ

Hi

I would talk to them and say thad you would like to make a compromise, the negs get for 5 years from now in a Banksave or something similar and you do not make any prints and not showing any picture to anyone for this 5 years.
Then in 5 years I will talk to you again an if it is still a problem for you I would destroy the negs under your eyes.
With thad you get some time thad meanwhile they devorse or they change ther mind etc.
Or maybe you don't like the shoots anymore etc.
If they don't want thad compromise I would sell the negs for a realistic price but with a written and signed statement from them thad they have non permission for printing, scanning selling putting onto the internet just not any use of the negs without your written okay!
I'm sure they will not stay long together, because this relationship starts with something wich will give thad girlfriend a penalty sooner or later!
And then he has to think about hes karma!
Peace and good light to all of you!

I have contacted the woman in question and told her very gently, but firmly the following -

- She has nothing to fear as I will not be selling prinst or placing them in a museum. But they are my negs and I get to keep them.

- The nudes aren't of vital interest to me, but I am currently interested in some of the clothed ones. I reserve the right to keep any images I want. I also reserve the right to keep any images adjacent to the image I want for the simple purposes of mechanics (A single neg will not work when I shoot 6x4.5 but the enlarger only has a 6x6 holder....Sorry, but a strip of 3 will come with me!)

- If I choose to sell to her, I would follow professional guidelines. Which means I would consider a reasonable price based on things like day-rates, number of negs, etc.

- That this would be expensive, but professional, and that I will only take payment in full, cash or as-good-as-cash only, no checks.

- I do this reluctantly because I don't see the fuss at all and she can be assured that I in no way mean to deman or harm her. And that I find this whole thing weird since prior to this she actually bragged to people about the images and showed them off.

- And of course that none of this equals a contract of any kind, this is merely exploratory, caveat emptor, quid pro quo, vin vidi vichi, carpe diem, and all that.

Robert,

There are a few basic things to consider:

- What are the negatives worth to you? You've already stated that there was never any intent to exhibit or sell photos from the negatives. Standard resale value may be irrelevant in this situation.

- What is your friendship with the model worth to you? If sacrificing the negatives will restore your friendship, does that make any difference?

What are the possible solutions?

- Deny the request. You have a signed release form - all the legal backing you need. The husband has no control or rights over his wife's past actions. You did get a release signed, right?

- You could give up the negatives for free or at cost as a gesture of good will toward your friend and her new husband. You could also charge a fee for giving up your artistic creations.

- Burn the negatives with all involved parties present. That will guarentee that the photos will never be published.

- Enter into a legal contract with the model. She may physically control the negatives. If prints are made from them, you must be given recognition as the photographer. If there is a profit, you must receive a fixed percentage. Try to keep the husband's name our of the contract. He has absolutely no legal say over the negatives that I can think of (I'm not a lawyer!). If he already has control problems, the inevitable divorce may make contractual obligations difficult to deal with.

Maintain a professional attitude even if the husband's demands are unreasonable. Negative PR from hostility on your part may cause you big problems in the future. No matter what you decide, remember that you've done nothing wrong.

Good luck! Let us know what happens!

- Jacob

If you want to be friends with her in two years, punch a hole in each negative and hand them over. She chose her guy, and if you go against him it will tell.

If you really don't care (though it's pretty clear you do) then do whatever you want; you'll lose her friendship anyway.

I'd encourage her to get out of that relationship. He's the stereotype of a wife-beater. If he thinks he's on a righteous crusade against you the evil pornographer, imagine how he will treat her once they're married and he starts taking her for granted.

And as for giving him your work, forget it. You can't discuss or negotiate with a person like this; he's only going to keep yelling and making unreasonable demands. You can give him all negs, and he'll still keep demanding the imaginary ones you're still hiding. He'll come back later and deny you ever destroyed anything like you agreed. Instead tell him it's your work and he has no legal right to it; please don't call this number again or you will consider it harrassment, that you will obtain a restraining order; and you're not surrendering YOUR WORK to anyone no matter what without a court order. Finally, if he wants to be reasonable and discuss the destruction of all or part of your work, you'll be happy to accomodate him, if you can fit it into your busy schedule. But as soon as any ranting and raving begins, collect your stuff walk away. You absolutely can't give people like that an inch, simply because they never give up anything in return, they don't keep their end of a bargain, and you need witnesses and written agreements.

I'd encourage her to get out of that relationship. He's the stereotype of a wife-beater.

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OK, I agree that the guy is difficult, but this is taking things a bit too far.

This has been going on for awhile. So how did it pan out Robert? What did you do?