Selenium Workflow and Problems

waffles · Jun 1, 2022

I recently started experimenting with toning my RC prints. There isn’t much good information out there about toning RC paper. There is an Ilford tutorial video but it is a very different case than mine.

I am toning Ilford MGIV RC Glossy as a part of original processing. And I am toning primarily for permanence.

I have three questions:

What is the recommended workflow for selenium toning RC paper for permanence?
Is Berg selenium toner supposed to smell that bad?
Is Berg selenium toner supposed to oxidize and turn a shit-brown so quickly (within 90 minutes?)

Right now my workflow is as follows: develop in Ilford Multigrade 1:9 for 1 minute, fix in Ilford Hypam 1:9 for 1 minute, tone in Berg Selenium 1:20 for 5 minutes, wash in running water for 2 minutes, squeegee and dry.

awty · Jun 1, 2022

5 minutes seems a very long time.
Usually tone till you get a slight shift in colour. You can have a untoned print to compare. Generally toning will take longer the more prints you tone with the original mix.
I would give it a wash after fixing, before toning.
Typically I would tone under a minute at that strength.

MattKing · Jun 2, 2022

Standard Ilford MGIV RC is remarkably resistant to toning. You really have to work at it.
And in order to achieve enhanced permanence with selenium toning, you have to be willing to accept a substantial change in tone, and that takes a long time. A slight change in tone makes little difference to the permanence. This applies to all papers, not just Ilford MGIV RC.
The new Ilford RC paper is much more susceptible to toning.
I do sometimes tone MGIV RC in selenium, but usually only for one of two purposes:
1) with the standard version of the paper, the relatively small response makes it easy to control a sepia/selenium split tone, which I really like using for some images; or
2) when I use my favourite version of the paper - the Cooltone version - for some images I use selenium to make the paper's tone even colder.
And yes, selenium toner can smell sometimes.
I can't remember the last time I used the Berg version, even though I have some.

waffles · Jun 2, 2022

What about the color? When I diluted it it was crystal clear. But within about 90 minutes the toning bath turned an ugly dark brown. Think developer that’s been left in an open tray for a week

NB23 · Jun 2, 2022

-Rinse well between fix and toning.
-Yes, smells ammonia.
-The presence of fixer makes it go brown quicker. That’s what happens to not properly ronsed prints: the mix of fixer + toner creates a brown stain. Now your whole bath is brown for what I believe is residual fixer mixed into the toner bath.
-Not sure about the change of color meaning better protection. There is no conclusive reports. The paper dipped in selenium still gets its silver covered by selenium regardless of change of color.

A selenium toned rc paper will leave a sticky residue/feeling on the fingers when handled substantially. That’s the selenium and its protective coat. It is there. Just like old Sistan: didn’t affect tones and it still protected the print, regardless.

Anyhow, a mgiv rc paper will never show a change in tone (or so little), is this to say it is therefore impossible to get proper protection? I’m not sure about that. Silver halides are still getting covered by selenium, regardless.

laser · Jun 2, 2022

Are you getting any staining? A longer wash after fixing would

laser · Jun 2, 2022

Are you getting any staining? A longer wash after fixing would reduce the risk of staining.

Based on experience with peroxide testing and light testing the degree of tone change is not an indication of image stability. Different paper emulsions have very different image tone characteristics. To determine image tone and image stability characteristics I would contact the paper manufacturers. Ask them for the results from standard hydrogen peroxide fuming tests and light stability tests for specific paper-toner combinations and their recommendations.

There is no substitute for practical actual testing.

Old_Dick · Jun 2, 2022

You may like this video. https://www.linabessonova.photography/videos#/ilford-mgrc-portfolio/

Doremus Scudder · Jun 3, 2022

The print permanence achieved by selenium toning is in direct proportion to the degree of toning. Unless you plan to tone to completion, which usually means a very, very reddish-brown print tone, you're likely not getting much protection. All the buzz about selenium toning to help preserve prints is based on a study done on microfilm stocks. Toning the microfilm to completion gave significant protection. People then tried to apply that to prints and, somehow, the urban myth arose about toning slightly in selenium to provide extra permanence. I simply doesn't work that way.

Really, if you choose to selenium tone, you should be doing it for the change in tone you get, not to try and somehow make the print more permanent. If you want prints with great longevity, take care in processing. Most important here is not exceeding the fixer capacity and washing the prints well.

As for the your toning solution turning brown: I never have that problem. I use Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (with fiber-base paper) and transfer prints directly from the second fixing to the toning bath. After a toning session, I filter the toner through a regular paper coffee filter and save it. Before the next toning session, I filter it again. When toning times get too long, I simply add a bit of concentrate to replenish the solution and bring activity back to a comfortable level. I have solutions of toner that are more than ten years old still going strong, no discoloration at all except for the black precipitate that needs to be filtered out before and after each session. You may be contaminating the toning solution somehow or, maybe, your fixer is exhausted and you are transferring too many waste product compounds to the toner along with the print. Does the discoloration happen when using fresh fix? If so, it may be something in the Berg toner that's not in the Kodak product.

I really hate to simply contradict other posters here on the forum, but I feel that the record really needs to be set straight. So...

-You do not need to rinse well between fix and toning. Ansel Adams didn't and I don't. I've been transferring prints directly form fixer to toner for 40 years now. Toning is fine that way; no stains, no problems provided that you use a fixer that's not too acidic like Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 or one of the alkaline fixers on the market. If you use Kodak powdered fixer and get stains, change fixers.

-The presence of fixer doesn't make my toner go brown at all. My prints are not rinsed at all between second fix and toner. No brown toner, no stains on the prints. There is certainly carried-over fixer in my toner, which causes a precipitate that I filter out, but otherwise, no change in toner color.

-Unless your getting a change of color or a significant change in print density, you are not getting much protection from selenium toning. Selenium binds with the silver in the emulsion; it doesn't just "coat" the print with something protective. That binding with the silver grains is what causes the change in tone and density. Without that, no protection. And, selenium toning is nothing like treating the print in Sistan or other similar protectants.

-And, FWIW, a properly-fixed print should not have any silver halides left in the emulsion. If there are any, it is a sign of improper fixation. The image-forming silver is pure metallic silver. Silver halides that don't get developed need to be removed by fixing and washing.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jun 3, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
-The presence of fixer doesn't make my toner go brown at all. My prints are not rinsed at all between second fix and toner. No brown toner, no stains on the prints. There is certainly carried-over fixer in my toner, which causes a precipitate that I filter out, but otherwise, no change in toner color.

I've had prints turn brown into selenium, and it's not something I ever want to see again.

The level of exhaustion of the fixer might be more important than the amount of fixer left in the print. Sulfur compounds and chemistry stuff.

So I check my fixer with FT-1 regularly, and I rinse and hypo-clear both before and after toning. For protection I use Adostab (formerly known as Sistan).

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

I’ve used a selenium bath instead of a holding water bath, once. All my 5x7 fb prints went straight from the second fixing bath into the selenium 1;40 tray. You should see the mess. The prints are blotchy, mottled in different colors and tones. A lost session, 40 worthless prints.

And when I test, and I pour a fixer bath into a selenium bath, it goes Brown.

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
The print permanence achieved by selenium toning is in direct proportion to the degree of toning. Unless you plan to tone to completion, which usually means a very, very reddish-brown print tone, you're likely not getting much protection. All the buzz about selenium toning to help preserve prints is based on a study done on microfilm stocks. Toning the microfilm to completion gave significant protection. People then tried to apply that to prints and, somehow, the urban myth arose about toning slightly in selenium to provide extra permanence. I simply doesn't work that way.

Really, if you choose to selenium tone, you should be doing it for the change in tone you get, not to try and somehow make the print more permanent. If you want prints with great longevity, take care in processing. Most important here is not exceeding the fixer capacity and washing the prints well.

As for the your toning solution turning brown: I never have that problem. I use Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (with fiber-base paper) and transfer prints directly from the second fixing to the toning bath. After a toning session, I filter the toner through a regular paper coffee filter and save it. Before the next toning session, I filter it again. When toning times get too long, I simply add a bit of concentrate to replenish the solution and bring activity back to a comfortable level. I have solutions of toner that are more than ten years old still going strong, no discoloration at all except for the black precipitate that needs to be filtered out before and after each session. You may be contaminating the toning solution somehow or, maybe, your fixer is exhausted and you are transferring too many waste product compounds to the toner along with the print. Does the discoloration happen when using fresh fix? If so, it may be something in the Berg toner that's not in the Kodak product.

I really hate to simply contradict other posters here on the forum, but I feel that the record really needs to be set straight. So...

-You do not need to rinse well between fix and toning. Ansel Adams didn't and I don't. I've been transferring prints directly form fixer to toner for 40 years now. Toning is fine that way; no stains, no problems provided that you use a fixer that's not too acidic like Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 or one of the alkaline fixers on the market. If you use Kodak powdered fixer and get stains, change fixers.

-The presence of fixer doesn't make my toner go brown at all. My prints are not rinsed at all between second fix and toner. No brown toner, no stains on the prints. There is certainly carried-over fixer in my toner, which causes a precipitate that I filter out, but otherwise, no change in toner color.

-Unless your getting a change of color or a significant change in print density, you are not getting much protection from selenium toning. Selenium binds with the silver in the emulsion; it doesn't just "coat" the print with something protective. That binding with the silver grains is what causes the change in tone and density. Without that, no protection. And, selenium toning is nothing like treating the print in Sistan or other similar protectants.

-And, FWIW, a properly-fixed print should not have any silver halides left in the emulsion. If there are any, it is a sign of improper fixation. The image-forming silver is pure metallic silver. Silver halides that don't get developed need to be removed by fixing and washing.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Doremus, the “binding” is happening regardless of color change.why does the binding have to show up as a color?

So far I’m not convinced that certain, say, ilford papers don’t get the protection while other Ilford papers do.

All Ilford papers share one same common silver.

Doremus Scudder · Jun 3, 2022

NB23 said:
Doremus, the “binding” is happening regardless of color change.why does the binding have to show up as a color?

So far I’m not convinced that certain, say, Ilford papers don’t get the protection while other Ilford papers do.

All Ilford papers share one same common silver.

Selenium binding to silver will cause a change in density or a change in tone. If neither of those things are happening, then how can any binding be happening?

I don't think emulsion formulas are the same for all Ilford papers; some formulations tone more readily than others.

Doremus

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
Selenium binding to silver will cause a change in density or a change in tone. If neither of those things are happening, then how can any binding be happening?

I don't think emulsion formulas are the same for all Ilford papers; some formulations tone more readily than others.

Doremus

I understand all you are saying. But I also understand that silver is silver. It binds or it binds. There can be no half about it.

MattKing · Jun 3, 2022

NB23 said:
I understand all you are saying. But I also understand that silver is silver. It binds or it binds. There can be no half about it.

However, all of the silver doesn't bind all at once. The binding process moves through the available silver, until there isn't any left. That takes some time. A print that has been partially toned in selenium has some silver that has been converted, and other silver that is still available. That print is less stable than a print where all or almost all of the silver has been converted.
And the intensity of the colour change provides a guide to how complete the conversion is.

john_s · Jun 3, 2022

waffles said:
What about the color? When I diluted it it was crystal clear. But within about 90 minutes the toning bath turned an ugly dark brown. Think developer that’s been left in an open tray for a week

Maybe Hypam is a bit too acidic. Acid is known to cause elemental selenium to precipitate out of the toner.

I add a little ammonia solution (sometimes called ammonium hydroxide) to Hypam to make it neutral. I use the quite strong product labelled 25%. I don't have my notes with me so I can't tell you how much, but it's quite a small amount, something like 50mL to the 5L container of concentrate. In a week I will check the actual amount and correct this post.

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

MattKing said:
However, all of the silver doesn't bind all at once. The binding process moves through the available silver, until there isn't any left. That takes some time. A print that has been partially toned in selenium has some silver that has been converted, and other silver that is still available. That print is less stable than a print where all or almost all of the silver has been converted.
And the intensity of the colour change provides a guide to how complete the conversion is.

I cannot agree with the part involving the color change. This is something new because Kodak never mentioned this in their litterature.

I can’t agree that, because MGIV doesn’t change in color/tone it necessarily means that it’s a paper that cannot get its longevity optimized. We are still talking about the same silver, not a sub-grade of silver.
Same for the residual silver left in the fixer bath. If MGIV had a different kind of silver, the fixing capacity for it would necessarily have to be different than for other papers that tone well. And again, there is no word about it in all the litterature. A sheet of paper of a given size is worth any other sheet of paper of the same size, in absolute terms as far as silver goes.

Or this: If MGIV doesn’t tone well, does it need to be fixed for longer than other papers? This question is VERY valid if we stop and think for a second. Why does its silver respond differently in selenium? And then again, it fixes equally well and at the same rate as other papers. So what does this TRULY tell us?

I need scientific proof. That is not to say that I think I am right, I am merely questioning it. But I cannot accept “because the color changes” as an ultimate answer.

MattKing · Jun 3, 2022

For clarity, I'm not saying that the longevity of MGIV isn't increased by selenium toning to completion.
I'm saying that:
1) like all papers, it takes a lot of toning before selenium toning is complete;
2) the change in colour is a guide to how complete the toning is. If there is no further change in colour after a while, the toning is complete; and/but
3) MGIV shows very little change in colour when selenium toned - it takes a long time before the change is noticeable, and a longer time before the change stops, indicating that selenium toning is complete.
The appearance of some papers is really improved by selenium toning. MGIV isn't on that list.

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

MattKing said:
For clarity, I'm not saying that the longevity of MGIV isn't increased by selenium toning to completion.
I'm saying that:
1) like all papers, it takes a lot of toning before selenium toning is complete;
2) the change in colour is a guide to how complete the toning is. If there is no further change in colour after a while, the toning is complete; and/but
3) MGIV shows very little change in colour when selenium toned - it takes a long time before the change is noticeable, and a longer time before the change stops, indicating that selenium toning is complete.
The appearance of some papers is really improved by selenium toning. MGIV isn't on that list.

you are clearly talking about the aesthetic of toning. The appearance.
Ok.

But this says nothing about the longevity.

I have a simple question, which is very pertinent:

“If MGIV does not tone at the same rate as other papers, does it FIX at the same rate?”

Answer YES and it means that even if no color change, the print is protected by a selenium toner.

Answer NO, and this means that we have all been living in a big lie. Have we been severely under fixing MGIV all these years? And if so, would that explain the “non longevity of prints” that we have wrongfuly attributed to non-tone-changing selenium toning instead of under-fixing?

No one will answer this, I’m afraid.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 3, 2022

waffles said:
I recently started experimenting with toning my RC prints. There isn’t much good information out there about toning RC paper. There is an Ilford tutorial video but it is a very different case than mine.

I am toning Ilford MGIV RC Glossy as a part of original processing. And I am toning primarily for permanence.

I have three questions:

What is the recommended workflow for selenium toning RC paper for permanence?

Is Berg selenium toner supposed to smell that bad?

Is Berg selenium toner supposed to oxidize and turn a shit-brown so quickly (within 90 minutes?)

Right now my workflow is as follows: develop in Ilford Multigrade 1:9 for 1 minute, fix in Ilford Hypam 1:9 for 1 minute, tone in Berg Selenium 1:20 for 5 minutes, wash in running water for 2 minutes, squeegee and dry.

First the print must be fully washed after fixing or staining may occur. If toning exclusively for permanence only brief toning is required (1-2 minutes. Afterwords the print is fully washed again.

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

Doremus,
Yes Selenium binds, sticks on, covers, attaches to, envelops, kisses the silver.

Yes it leaves a sticky and oily residue on my fingers when I handle my selenium toned prints, including mgiv that is selenium treated but without a color change. That binding, is the protective factor, just like sistan.

There is no proof that only a color change guarantees longevity. I will make my own torture test with mgiv prints that will be selenium toned on 50% of the surface. Shall take a year to come back with conclusive results.

MattKing · Jun 3, 2022

MGIV tones to completion at the same rate as other RC papers.
You just cannot tell so easily when it is done.
And it doesn't look very good while it is doing so - either partially or completely.
And even if you like how it looks, it takes a long time getting there.
Selenium is best suited for:
1) cooling the tone with certain papers - an aesthetic reason;
2) partial toning, with associated increase of shadow presence, for those papers who exhibit that characteristic - also an aesthetic reason; or
3) for the relatively small percentage of papers that retain an attractive tone when toned to completion, increased longevity.
Sulfide based toners are much more effective and efficient at increasing longevity, while providing a much more predictable change of tone.
The use of selenium toning to increase longevity is an older practice that has turned out to not be as reliable as was once thought. It also has more relevance with older papers.
FWIW, with MGIV RC or other RC papers I use - and I mostly use RC papers - I find it useful to incorporate a hardening bath after toning. One of the benefits being getting rid of any "slippery" feeling to the surface of the papers.

NB23 · Jun 3, 2022

“The use of selenium toning to increase longevity is an older practice that has turned out to not be as reliable as was once thought. It also has more relevance with older papers.”

This is totally Hearsay.

Can prove it?
Studies on the subject?
Publications?

mshchem · Jun 3, 2022

waffles said:
What about the color? When I diluted it it was crystal clear. But within about 90 minutes the toning bath turned an ugly dark brown. Think developer that’s been left in an open tray for a week

Selenium toner solution can be used to check for residual silver halides. A brown stain indicates inadequate fixing. Start with fresh Ilford rapid fixer, film strength 1+3. Develop, stop, fix for Ilford's recommended time, rinse for 30 seconds in running water, then into Kodak rapid Selenium toner 1+3 (yes 1+3) at 20-22°C change should be quite noticeable in a minute. Better dmax, color shift. Brown stain is from inadequate fixing.
Selenium toner (Kodak is all I've ever used) has a very strong smell of ammonia. Use constant agitation. For rc after toning I would wash for 2 minutes, max.
I've always used Selenium, direct sulphide, or Kodak Blue, Gold toner. The 1+3 Selenium toner will last forever. Kodak.
Toning warmtone papers is the most dramatic. All of Ilford's and Foma's papers respond, all in different ways. MHOFWIW YKMV. Peace, Mike

MattKing · Jun 3, 2022

NB23 said:
“The use of selenium toning to increase longevity is an older practice that has turned out to not be as reliable as was once thought. It also has more relevance with older papers.”

This is totally Hearsay.

Can prove it?
Studies on the subject?
Publications?

Tim Rudman's Toning Book.
This thread has a useful discussion: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-does-not-improve-archival-properties.146864/
The unreliability relates to the fact that you need complete toning in order to get the complete protection - which may be inconsistent with the change in appearance you want. As a result, many people stop selenium toning before longevity is maximized. A selenium + sepia mix is much more reliable.

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