Selenium Toning

I adopted a new regime to my fibre print toning and would just like to know what others think.
My workflow is a two step process: A) Develop - Stop - Fix - Wash & Dry prints; (B) During another day, take prints and pre-soak in fixer - Selenium tone - Hypo Clearing Agent - water holding bath until all are ready to wash.
In both instances, my wash times are 60 minutes in a slotted washer.

I'm not sure I understand why you are pre-soaking in fixer rather than just water. Are you concerned about the completeness of your earlier fixing?

MattKing said:

I'm not sure I understand why you are pre-soaking in fixer rather than just water. Are you concerned about the completeness of your earlier fixing?

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It is the second fix. Some guys use two fixers during print processing. I do mine after. This is what I am wondering, does anyone have any experience doing it this way. I use to just use water but thought the second fix idea was a good one ... perhaps I am mistaken ???
I got the idea from some photographer's website - can't remember the site.

Water soak, then fixer (fresh) and then right into the selenium toner. In my experience prints need to be either archivally washed within an inch of their life or soaking with fixer, no middle ground. Poorly washed prints tone and stain unevenly. And don't worry about the fixer in your prints, Rapid Selenium toner contains fixer.

I doubt your workflow is hurting anything, but it sounds like a lot of unnecessary extra work. My method (and it's certainly not the only way of doing things) is to: develop, stop, fix (in an F-24 style formula), then into a circulating holding bath of water. Then, when I'm done a printing session I mix up a solution of RST and HCA. All final prints then get a treatment in plain hypo, then into the toner bath, and then the final wash. Therefore, my workflow sounds nearly the same as yours sans the extra wash/dry cycle.

Bob,

My work flow is almost identical to yours. Print session: dev-stop-first fix-wash-dry. Toning session: water soak-second fix-toner-wash aid-wash-stabilize-dry. I like to collect enough "keepers" for a toning session rather than set up for toning after each print session. I usually tone 36+ prints at a time.

If your fixer isn't to acidic (I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam 1+9) you can transfer directly from the fix to the toner. If you get stains, either you've not fixed adequately or the fixer is too acidic. Any of the alkaline fixers or a plain hypo bath will work as well.

Search here and on the LF forum for details on my method of replenishing and reusing selenium toner. I never discard selenium toner (wasteful and not very eco-friendly). When toning times get too long, simply add a bit of concentrate to the working solution to bring it back up to speed. Filter your toner before and after every session (I use coffee filters) to remove the inevitable black precipitate that forms (It doesn't hurt the toning action, however and doesn't stick to the prints either). I have two gallons of toner (one weak, one strong) that are going on more than ten years now.

Best,

Doremus

Unless you are interested in the tone provided by selenium there is little point in toning. A brief toning with selenium does little or nothing to achieve archival permanence. This conclusion was based on work by The Image Permanence Institute (IPI) at the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) in Rochester, New York. Marking sure that prints are well washed is of far greater importance.

I've been thinking of learning to do selenium toning, not for the permanence, but to be able to use RC papers and still get rich blacks. Sound reasonable?

If you are not getting deep blacks with RC it sounds like something in your routine (most likely development) is off.

Thanks for the responses, but please consider that I didn't say anything was wrong with my process or prints. They don't stain and are fixed and washed appropriately so that is not the issue. In fact my prints are accepted through a jury process into exhibitions. However, in isolation I just wanted to know what others did and/or thought of my process nothing more ... nothing less. Thanks again.

darkroommike said:

.... Rapid Selenium toner contains fixer.

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Really? I didn't know this!

Yes, if I'm not mistaken there is a good deal of ammonia thiosulfate in selenium toner.

The Kodak publication and the Ilford publications on Toning are very clear that you need to thorou
ghly wash a print to remove silver salts and fixer before toning or uneven results and staining will occur.

If you go directly from fixer to selenium toner, and if that fixer has seen some use, there will be some silver in the fixer. This silver will carry over, and as a result I would expect problems with selenium toner. There may not be a need for archival washing between fixer and selenium toner, but I would at least wash out most of the Silver Thiosulfate complexes before going into selenium toner.

My workflow is:
- developer
- stop
- water rinse 30 seconds
- fix 1
- fix 2
- wash 5-10 minutes
- at this point I can leave the prints to dry and tone later, or go directly to toning
- selenium (1:9)
- HCA
- wash in vertical print washer 30 minutes

Rudi,

Like I posted earlier, I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the selenium toner as a standard procedure. Yes, it is the second fix and has less dissolved silver in it than a first fix would, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of carry-over of dissolved silver in the form of silver thiosulfate complexes into the toner. This seems to precipitate out as black silver selenide (or something similar, haven't tested this, just surmising) and is the precipitate that I filter out before and after each use of the toner. I would guess that it reduces the toner life somewhat, but not appreciably (and not having to spend time on an extra wash step is worth it). As long as the fix is adequate and the fixer not too acidic or exhausted (and by this I mean no more dissolved silver than allowable for a second fixing bath before it gets promoted to the first fix, so somewhere under 0.5 g/l), there should be no problems. Ansel Adams advocated transferring prints directly to the selenium toner from a second fix that was a plain hypo solution. I have used plain hypo, TF-4, and Ilford Hypam and Rapid Fixer in the 1+9 dilution as well as Kodak Rapid Fix in the "print dilution" immediately before the selenium toner with excellent results. The only time I ever got staining was when the second fix was inadvertently not changed out and exhausted. This resulted in a yellow overall stain that disappeared with a refix and a wash. Residual hypo and silver tests are good on prints toned in 10+ year-old replenished selenium toner.

And, although KRST contains ammonium thiosulfate and the freshly-mixed toner has a distinct ammonia smell, the thiosulfate in older replenished toner must be very little and there is no ammonia smell at all. Nevertheless, the toner works just fine and just the same as fresh toner.

So, at least for me, there are zero problems with the toner that result from transferring prints directly from a second fix or from reusing and replenishing the toner.

Kilgallb,

Staining of prints in selenium toner seems to be the result of a couple of things. Worst is incomplete fixing. Transferring prints from a too-acid solution to the toner also can cause staining. Partially washing a print will cause mottling due to uneven toning. There's something about the remaining fix and/or unwashed out silver complexes that affect toning rates. However, if you transfer directly from a neutral or alkaline fixer that is not exhausted (second fix, see above), then toning is even and staining does not occur. The alternative is to wash thoroughly before toning. Just rinsing or washing for too short a time will cause problems. I find the time saved by not having to wash before toning way worth using a neutral pH fix and keeping an eye on my fixer throughput.

Best,

Doremus

Always a good idea to periodically use the Kodak Residual Silver Test ST-1 on prints. The official version using sodium sulfide is more accurate than the substitute version using KRST.

Thanks for the explanation Doremus.

I use an acid fixer (Kodak with no hardner added) I am very careful to wash completely. I print mostly RC papers so I make large borders and cut them down as the edges do fray a bit. I wash 1 minute after fix, then on toning day in the garage I soak about 30 seconds then tone 2 - 4 minutes then back into the darkroom to wash for at least 2 minutes.

What type of neutral or base type fixer would you recommend?

Kilgallb said:

Thanks for the explanation Doremus. ... What type of neutral or base type fixer would you recommend?

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As I mentioned, I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam in the 1+9 dilution. It is neutral enough to not cause staining when I transfer directly from the second fix to the toner. I can recommend them unreservedly. Note that I don't use the stronger 1+4 dilution that Ilford recommends for their "archival sequence." I find 30 seconds in a fixing bath coupled with drain times for larger prints just too imprecise. Note also that I'm using two-bath fixing (which you likely aren't with RC paper) and that my second fix has a very low level of dissolved silver in it. You may get staining after running a lot of prints through the single fixing bath if the fixer is close to exhaustion even though you are within published capacity.

I've used TF-4 as well with good results, but didn't like the ammonia smell so much (the Ilford products seem fairly odorless). TF-5 should be very good as well, since it is neutral and purported to not have the unpleasant ammonia odor. It's on my list of things to try. I've used the Kodak Rapid Fix, but don't like having to deal with disposing of the acid hardener that I don't use. And, as has been mentioned, a plain hypo bath as a second fix immediately before toning works well too and was Ansel Adams' standard procedure.

Best,

Doremus

Gerald C Koch said:

Always a good idea to periodically use the Kodak Residual Silver Test ST-1 on prints. The official version using sodium sulfide is more accurate than the substitute version using KRST.

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I concur, and on the other side of that also check your Fixer to make sure it is still good. I use the old Kodak Silver Estimating paper books Kodak sold in the 80s, the litmus test of Silver in your fix!

So today I am printing murals and I used Hypam and mixed 1:4 which meant two full five liter bottles, one bottle for fix 1 and one for fix 2.
I spend about 3 - 4 minutes constant agitation combined two trays as normal times. These are really big sheets of paper and I feel that I really have to concentrate
to get good flow on each print.

You are using 1:9 which would save me a lot of chem. what would be your time for each tray at this higher dilution?

Doremus Scudder said:

As I mentioned, I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam in the 1+9 dilution. It is neutral enough to not cause staining when I transfer directly from the second fix to the toner. I can recommend them unreservedly. Note that I don't use the stronger 1+4 dilution that Ilford recommends for their "archival sequence." I find 30 seconds in a fixing bath coupled with drain times for larger prints just too imprecise. Note also that I'm using two-bath fixing (which you likely aren't with RC paper) and that my second fix has a very low level of dissolved silver in it. You may get staining after running a lot of prints through the single fixing bath if the fixer is close to exhaustion even though you are within published capacity.

I've used TF-4 as well with good results, but didn't like the ammonia smell so much (the Ilford products seem fairly odorless). TF-5 should be very good as well, since it is neutral and purported to not have the unpleasant ammonia odor. It's on my list of things to try. I've used the Kodak Rapid Fix, but don't like having to deal with disposing of the acid hardener that I don't use. And, as has been mentioned, a plain hypo bath as a second fix immediately before toning works well too and was Ansel Adams' standard procedure.

Best,

Doremus

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My method from the way-back machine;

Spend about a 10 to 12 hour printing session that (hopefully) yields three copies of the final 16x20 print. Fully fixed, KHCA, and washed (to archival standards).

After many such sessions, pick the best of the best -- one to two of each image (perhaps 10 to 16 prints) and give them a good long soak (water). Store the other copies archivally - hence the full archival treatment of all prints prior to toning.

Heat KRST (1:16 w/ KHCA) to 100F and tone.

Portiga Rapid III tone for 1 minute (removing print from KRST at 45 seconds, drain and into a fresh bath of KHCA at the minute mark). Then 40 min. wash. That got rid of the native greenish-brown color and yielded a rich slightly reddish brown tone...but avoided going any further to the unpleasent (for my images) reddish purplish tone.

Ilford Gallery tone for 5 minutes (basically to completion) -- then as above. Yielded a nice neutral tone with some increased density in the blacks.

Sort of glad I am not siver printing anymore.

PhotoBob said:

It is the second fix. Some guys use two fixers during print processing. I do mine after. This is what I am wondering, does anyone have any experience doing it this way. I use to just use water but thought the second fix idea was a good one ... perhaps I am mistaken ???
I got the idea from some photographer's website - can't remember the site.

Click to expand...

the idea for 2 fix is use somewhat exhausted fix from the pervious printing session as fix 1, then fresh fix for fix 2 which becomes fix 1 the next session, but total time does not extend beyond recommending fixing time. If you are using FB is very important not to over fix.

tih said:

I've been thinking of learning to do selenium toning, not for the permanence, but to be able to use RC papers and still get rich blacks. Sound reasonable?

Click to expand...

I am getting lazy. I've been a fibre base guy for over 40 years still am. However now I print everything first on rc. And I always tone in strong 1+3 Rapid Selenium toner in HCA.

I go direct from film strength rapid fix into the slightly warm toner, I get much better everything. Everything is richer, I tone every print I make. I usually tone in 80 -85 F toner,it goes quick. And it really helps. You can't tell exactly what exposure till it's dry. Drydown and the toner increase density. You might make several exposures so when they are all toned and dry you can pick the best to optimize.
I got lucky and got a 20 inch Ilford speed dryer so I can dry an 8x10 in about 10 seconds. Use glossy paper for maximum blacks.

After you get it figured out with rc, if you want to make a nicer fiber base print you won't waste so much Time and money.
Best Regards Mike

While selenium toners like KRST do contain thiosulfate it is not really correct to think of them as containing fixer. The purpose of the thiosulfate is NOT for its ability to fix a silver image. Selenium metal dissolves in a solution of thiosulfate to form a selenium sulfur complex which acts as the toning agent.