Selenium toning questions

Hello,

this is a great site, and my first post.

I am printing for a solo exhibition, my first. I am using fiber paper, Ilford MGIV with a glossy finish. The prints are 16x20 in size. I am loving the paper, but clearly it is taking much longer to go through the processes.

I want to be sure that the prints are going to be considered professional or valuable to a reasonable standard. Is selenium toning a must? I dont particularly care to change the print, I like the way they are coming out, and I would love to save on the extra time and effort.

That being said, I have ilford rapid fix, Heico permawash and ilford selenium toner. Any thoughts?

Also, is it true that high dilution selenium (1+20) has no archival effect? Ilford maintains it does, other essays out there claim not.

Thanks
Justin

With MG IV Selenium toning has very little effect on image colour so don't worry too much. Selenium toning does improve archival permanence even at 1+20 so just follow the Ilford directions.

Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

I am not very expirenced with selenium toning, just a student, but I was getting ready to enter some photographs in a contest and my instructor suggested I selenium tone my prints. As with you, I liked the way my prints were turning out, but after toneing them, I REALLY loved them. Toning them gave the image that extra pop. Got best of show in the contest on one of my images, and first place on another. Toning may have made the difference.

rberry65 said:

I am not very expirenced with selenium toning, just a student, but I was getting ready to enter some photographs in a contest and my instructor suggested I selenium tone my prints. As with you, I liked the way my prints were turning out, but after toneing them, I REALLY loved them. Toning them gave the image that extra pop. Got best of show in the contest on one of my images, and first place on another. Toning may have made the difference.

Click to expand...

Selenium toning works best with warm tone papers where it takes away the greenish tinge, warming the image slightly, and improving the D-max.

Yes it does give prints a lift.

Ian

It was Foma warm tone paper (so far, my favorite paper). I'm attaching the image that won best of show (scanners do not do it justice, something else I'm very inexperienced at, digital, and computers, lol). What is D-max?

D-max is the maximum density of the blacks in an image (or negative).

Yes the Foma warm-tone papers tone wonderfully in Selenium, I'm still using up some Forte Polywarmtone but Foma 111 might be what I switch to this is the 111 below.



Ian

Wow, Georgus Ian.

So.......can you selenium tone negatives?

Yes you can selenium tone negatives, but to different ends than if you had toned a print.

Its used to add contrast by adding toner to the denser parts of the negative.

TSSPro said:

Yes you can selenium tone negatives, but to different ends than if you had toned a print.

Its used to add contrast by adding toner to the denser parts of the negative.

Click to expand...

It actually shift the image colour of the silver grains making them redder, and red/black acts more like a safelight filter when printing.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

With MG IV Selenium toning has very little effect on image colour so don't worry too much. Selenium toning does improve archival permanence even at 1+20 so just follow the Ilford directions.

Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the thoughts. Given im staying with the Ilford paper, I want to follow the directions from Ilford. here are my thoughts:

I could take the prints from the rapid fix, rinse in fresh water for a few seconds, and then put them into the perma wash/toner mix (1 part toner: <20 parts perma wash) for about 10 minutes, then rinse in water for about 30 minutes.

Any thoughts on dried prints? I have some done already, can I wet them and then tone them?

Justin

Ian Grant said:

With MG IV Selenium toning has very little effect on image colour so don't worry too much. Selenium toning does improve archival permanence even at 1+20 so just follow the Ilford directions.

Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the thoughts. Given im staying with the Ilford paper, I want to follow the directions from Ilford. here are my thoughts:

I could take the prints from the rapid fix, rinse in fresh water for a few seconds, and then put them into the perma wash/toner mix (1 part toner: <20 parts perma wash) for about 10 minutes, then rinse in water for about 30 minutes.

Any thoughts on dried prints? I have some done already, can I wet them and then tone them?

Justin

Yes you can tone dried prints, soak them in water for a few minutes first, I often do this. When toning always keep referring yto an untoned print to see waht changes are takingplace, test the 10 mins with a test strip or scrap print cut in half.

Ian

I haven't read all the posts but I print on the same paper and use two fix baths, after the second I place the prints in a toner/permawash tray until I see a very slight shift in the middle tones - usually a couple of minutes. Then into a second permawash bath for 3-4minutes before thorough washing. Then let air dry. I've been doing this for over thirty years with no problems.

Jeffrey: What dilutions do you use for the 2 baths of toner/permawash?
Steve

This subject has been discussed a lot here on APUG. Doing a search will turn up lots of information (some of it mine;-)

Just to cover some of the basics.

1) Selenium is a toxic heavy metal. Avoid contact with skin by using gloves or print tongs.

2) For the same reason, try not to dispose of toner irresponsibly. I advocate replenishment, filtering and reuse. I have 2 gallons of toner that has been going for years. If you do discard, use the solution till toning times are very long, then leave a few scrap prints in the toning tray overnight. This will remove most of the selenium so the solution is safe to discard into the municipal sewer.

3) Don't mix your toner with any kind of hypo-clearing agent like Kodak Hypo-Clearing Agent or Permawash. The toner lasts much longer than the hypo-clearing agent. It's unnecessary and wasteful.

4) There are a number of work-flows for toning. Some, like mine, move the print directly from fix 2 to toning bath with no intermediate rinse. Some wash prints fully before toning. The important thing is to make sure the prints are fully fixed (use two-bath fixing with fiber-base prints!) and that the fixer is not too acid. If your prints stain or turn an overall yellow/red color, one of these two things is likely the culprit.

5) Hypo-clear and wash fully after toning even if you wash before. Selenium toner has ammonium thiosulfate (fixer) in it. (This is why many of us eliminate the wash before toning, since you have to wash afterward anyway.)

6) Different papers tone differently. Get to know how your materials work. Experiment with scraps and different dilutions, keeping a non-toned print around as a comparison. Some papers need a strong solution to change at all, some papers change radically in very weak solutions. As toner is used up, toning times increase for a given tone change. When times get too long, you can just add a bit more concentrated solution (a little at a time, don't overdo it). Look for changes in both contrast and image tone.


Have fun

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

I don't know the chemistry behind this, but I have read here - www.heylloyd.com/technicl/acid_free.htm - that selenium toner lasts best in an alkaline environment, and that it fails or cruds up sooner when allowed to become acidic. I would be very interested if anyone with knowledge of the chemical reactions behind that could comment on whether the acid / alkaline conjecture is correct.

Given that I currently have no reason to doubt, and that I can see no downside, other than a little time and a little sulfite / wash aid used up, I am giving fully washed prints a heavy sulfite/wash aid pre toning bath, to keep the toner alkaline. My hope is to keep a modest stock of toner working and clean forever with mere filtering and replenisment.

JBlejer said:

...Also, is it true that high dilution selenium (1+20) has no archival effect? Ilford maintains it does, other essays out there claim not...

Click to expand...

Selenium toning converts relatively sensitive metallic image silver into a far more stable compound, called silver selenide. Full protection only comes with full conversion, or in other words, complete and strong toning is required for maximum archival protection. However, this will change image hues considerable and may not be aesthetically desirable. Light selenium toning will not change image hues by much and still provides some image protection. Some toning is always better than none!

Stronger image protection can be achieved with light sulphide toning.

So, for minimal tone change and maximum archival (I understand they are opposed), what is a good dilution, assuming I do not mix toner with the permawash?

Then to recap, I would work in the following way:
Develop -
Stopbath -
Ilford Rapid fix 1 minute -
Ilford Selenium toner x minutes -
permawash 10 minutes -
wash in fresh running water for 30 minutes -
hang dry.

ps. little side question, possibly not worth answering. I am using the black paper clips (google black paper clips for reference) the ones that are very strong. They are cheap, and I use a lot of the little ones for back to back hang drying, but they leave little marks in the paper because of how strong they are. What do others use?

Justin

JBlejer said:

...
Then to recap, I would work in the following way:
Develop -
Stopbath -
Ilford Rapid fix 1 minute -
Ilford Selenium toner x minutes -
permawash 10 minutes -
wash in fresh running water for 30 minutes -
hang dry....

Click to expand...

I recommend a slight process modification to:

Develop -
Stopbath -
Ilford Rapid fix 1 minute - (1st fix at film strength)
Ilford Rapid fix 1 minute - (2nd fix at film strength)
wash in fresh running water for 10 minutes -
Ilford Selenium toner x minutes -
permawash 10 minutes -
wash in fresh running water for 30 minutes -
hang dry

JBlejer,

I second Ralph's advice about using a second fix.
As to your question, different papers respond differently. I would start with an intermediate dilution, say 1+15 or so and tone a test print. If there is no image change within 8 minutes or so, add some toner concentrate to you solution to step it up to 1+9 or so. I like toning times of about five minutes, so I tweak the dilution to keep me in the 4-7 minute range.

As to how much toning is needed: This is a question of aesthetics. Pull the print when it reaches the amount of image tonal shift you desire. Some use a very dilute toning solution and shorter times to just increase the contrast a bit, since maximum density is increased first before visible toning starts in many cases. Others, like me, like a hint of purplish-black instead of the greenish tint many papers have. Some subjects want more tonal shift than others, etc. It's up to you.

I'd advise you to tone for aesthetic reasons and then take whatever increase in print permanence as an added advantage.

Ralph,

I'm curious as to why you feel the 10-minute wash between second fix and toner is necessary. I have transferred prints straight from fix 2 to the toner for years with good results (I use Rapid Fix 1+9 or an alkaline fix for fix 2 to ensure the pH is not too low). Is there another reason besides considerations of pH?

TIA,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

Doremus Scudder said:

...Ralph,

I'm curious as to why you feel the 10-minute wash between second fix and toner is necessary. I have transferred prints straight from fix 2 to the toner for years with good results (I use Rapid Fix 1+9 or an alkaline fix for fix 2 to ensure the pH is not too low). Is there another reason besides considerations of pH?...

Click to expand...

FB prints benefit from a 10-minute wash, prior to toning, to prevent potential image staining and toner contamination from acid fixer carryover. Prints processed with neutral or alkali fixers do not require a rinse prior to selenium toning, but excess acid fixer can cause staining and highlight loss with some toners. This step removes enough fixer to avoid this problem. For selenium toning, a brief 10-minute wash is sufficient. For direct sulfide toning, a 30-minute wash is required. However, the bleaching process required for indirect sulfide toning calls for a complete 60-minute wash prior to toning. Otherwise, residual fixer will dissolve bleached highlights before the toner has a chance to ‘redevelop’ them.

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your input. So, I had to modify slightly. Here is what I did, (mostly according to the ilford specs)


Develop -
Stopbath -
Ilford Rapid fix 1 minute -
wash in fresh running water for 10 minutes -
Ilford Selenium toner 1:15 for 5-6 minutes -
permawash 10 minutes -
wash in fresh running water for 30 minutes -
hang dry

I am keeping under 40 8x10 per liter of fix, and I dont have anymore trays. Im already toning in the kitchen (really the hallway and I have a huge window fan sucking the air out for ventilation)

Well, thanks again. I have to say this is a far throw from RC paper, but the quality is more than making up for the time it takes.

Justin.

There are very good reasons it's widely recommended that one use a two bath fix sequence. Many threads here point that out. The first bath gets most of the work done, but unless very fresh and unused, tends to leave less easily washed forms of the fixing byproducts in the paper. The second bath being close to fresh, converts those byproducts into a more washable form.

Justin

CBG is right. If prefer, you can split the session. Do the processing, including two-bath fixing and a full wash, at one day, and the toning the next. You would have to wash again, because selenium toner has some fixer in it, but you it makes for two short sessions and you are not running out of room or trays.