Selenium toning & Hypo Clear

Bill Burk · Feb 6, 2021

That could be it! Cold fix. I am careful to use compensating temperature times in developer but I just fix for 8 minutes no matter what temperature. Maybe the fix has dissolved the silver halide but the solution remains in the emulsion, and that’s what turns brown.

But when I wash after fix it never happens.

I really intended to wash after fix to keep the Selenium toner from becoming contaminated so I could use it “forever” for hazardous chemical safety purposes.

But the real benefit is that I don’t stain my prints anymore.

Next I am going to monitor my fix temperature better.

Bill Burk · Feb 6, 2021

Why is it that the more time I spend here the more I learn? Thanks @ParkerSmithPhoto

NB23 · Feb 6, 2021

To add to this discussion; my water holding bath, where I pile up the fixed prints before toning and washing, is a hypo clearing bath.
I then quickly rinse all the prints in running water and I then proceed to toning them.

I used to have all kinds of stains before I started to use HCA as a holding bath (vs clear water).

ParkerSmithPhoto · Feb 6, 2021

Bill Burk said:
That could be it! Cold fix.

Yes, it was quite puzzling as I've had the same workflow for many years now. After the "a-ha" moment, I went down and measured my fixer temp. Straight out of the bottle it was under 60°!

I, too, learn new things every day.

Bill Burk · Feb 6, 2021

p.s. I agitate individual prints in the fix the whole time just the same way as when I develop them.

grain elevator · Feb 6, 2021

Bill Burk said:
p.s. I agitate individual prints in the fix the whole time just the same way as when I develop them.

For 8 minutes as per #26?! Wow that's a long time! I never thought that could be necessary - have you tested and that was what was needed?

Bill Burk · Feb 6, 2021

grain elevator said:
For 8 minutes as per #26?! Wow that's a long time! I never thought that could be necessary - have you tested and that was what was needed?

You’re right something doesn’t add up. I set the GraLab to 8 minutes. I am sure the print scientifically only needs 4 minutes. But I fix longer than all the recommendations.

I agitate for three minutes in the fix before turning on the light. Then probably spend a minute or two looking at the print and deciding if it’s worth another.

So 4 minutes continuous agitation with attention. Then I make another print and by the time the second print reaches fix I switch them over and move the first print to a water tray.

Fix is always fresh 1:7 paper strength rapid fix

NB23 · Feb 6, 2021

I’d be uncomfortable fixing that much.
You say 1:7 rapid fix, is it kodak with hardener?

Must be unwashable...

Bill Burk · Feb 6, 2021

Without hardener. Hard to get Kodak these days so now it’s Ilford.

Then I wash for an hour, tone for about four minutes and then wash at least an hour after

Rich Ullsmith · Feb 7, 2021

God bless Transtar TP5+. Non-fiber paper rocks. This thread was great. Lot of people passionate about the craft. Learned a lot in a short period of time. Thanks.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 7, 2021

Bill,

Eight minutes in rapid fixer for prints is just not necessary. You probably end up bleaching the highlights away a bit with that time.

I use Ilford Rapid Fixer at the weaker 1+9 and feel like I'm fixing more than needed at 2 minutes per bath (4 minutes total, but there's a wash and dry after bath one). It is remotely possible that your extended fixing times have something to do with your staining problems when toning as well.

IIRC, Kodak recommends a 5-minute total fixing time for their Rapid Fix. If you use a one-bath fixing regime, you'd want to stick to that and keep the capacity down - 10 8x10x per liter for optimum permanence or 30-40 for "commercial" standards. However, if you're fixing for 8 minutes and using this larger capacity, you're likely embedding lots of argentothiosufates in the fibers of your paper, which don't wash out easily. HCA and the 60+ minutes of wash help, but, why overfix in the first place? Kodak's recommendations are likely on the conservative side anyway.

For two-bath fixation, you end up in a second bath with very little dissolved silver and much fewer complex argentothiosulfates for the final half of fixing time. I'm sure that helps with washing.

Best,

Doremus

Bill Burk · Feb 7, 2021

I had an old pamphlet about darkroom defects that showed bleaching due to too long fixation.

I misplaced it and have looked everywhere for it to no avail.

I figured it was a misconception since there was only one place I ever read about it.

Anyway I don’t think I have ever experienced that. I make a fresh bath for each darkroom session and only make 3-5 prints per session. So I wouldn’t benefit from 2-bath fixation.

I used to use Kodak Fixer that comes in a bag, and that may be where I settled on the 8 minutes.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 8, 2021

Bill Burk said:
I had an old pamphlet about darkroom defects that showed bleaching due to too long fixation. I misplaced it and have looked everywhere for it to no avail. I figured it was a misconception since there was only one place I ever read about it.

Anyway I don’t think I have ever experienced that. I make a fresh bath for each darkroom session and only make 3-5 prints per session. So I wouldn’t benefit from 2-bath fixation.
I used to use Kodak Fixer that comes in a bag, and that may be where I settled on the 8 minutes.

Bleaching from overfixing is real (as noted above), but it does take a long time. I tested once and figured about 10 minutes in Rapid Fixer was the threshold. Your eight minutes comes close to that, though, which is why I mentioned it.

Remember that powdered fixers like Kodak Fixer are sodium thiosulfate based and are the slower, "conventional" fixers. Most liquid rapid fixers are ammonium thiosulfate based and work much more quickly (hence the "rapid"). Conventional fixers usually have times of 5-10 minutes, rapid fixers about half of that if not less.

It seems like a single-bath fixation regime is right for you. If you are careful to stick to the capacity for optimum permanence, and use the weaker "print dilution," I see no reason why you can't transfer directly from your fixer to your selenium toner. A test may be in order. If you get staining on your first print, something other than inadequate fixing is certainly going on.

Best,

Doremus

Selenium toning & Hypo Clear

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency