Selenium Toning Fiber Prints

blansky · Mar 18, 2004

Not wanting to sound like a broken record, broken record, broken record, but cover the trays with plexiglas and there are virtually no fumes, no fumes, no fumes.

Also something to keep in mind. If you pull the print before the selenium has completely done it's dance, the print is technically not completely archival. If you just slip it in the soup for a slight color shift, you have a partially toned print but not necessarily an archival print.

Michael McBlane

Donald Miller · Mar 18, 2004

Michael,

I understand your statement about the archivalness (is that a word?) of a print...but the way that I feel about it...Who the hell really cares? As long as it looks good enough for someone to give me some money. By the time that the print "goes south" I will have gone "down".

If too many prints are made archival there will be no depletion of work already done and let's face it there will be a saturation point. After all once you have the walls of your home, garage, gardeners shack, and bathroom covered with the stuff what the heck are you going to do with it? My cat does not have a particular affinity for the prints...she just yawns when I show her my latest and greatest. A thought.

Later,
The Schmuck

ann · Mar 18, 2004

Well, I for one care. When some one pays me for a print and i sell it as being archival I am ethically bound to be sure that I have followed specific standards. In the grand scheme of printing these steps are minimal ; or perhaps because i have been doing my printing in this manner it is natural and normal without undue stress or issues.

What others do, is their business

Donald Miller · Mar 18, 2004

ann said:
Well, I for one care. When some one pays me for a print and i sell it as being archival I am ethically bound to be sure that I have followed specific standards. In the grand scheme of printing these steps are minimal ; or perhaps because i have been doing my printing in this manner it is natural and normal without undue stress or issues.

What others do, is their business

Ann,

It is unfortunate that on the internet we can not fully observe the personalities of the participants. I seem to have struck a nerve with my attempt at humor. I assure you that this was meant in a light way and is not indicative of my processing. Perhaps over time you will find that I make serious attempts at not being to darned serious.

Sincerely,
Donald Miller

blansky · Mar 18, 2004

Donald said,

I understand your statement about the archivalness (is that a word?) of a print...but the way that I feel about it...Who the hell really cares? As long as it looks good enough for someone to give me some money. By the time that the print "goes south" I will have gone "down".

Funny, that's exactly the same philosophy that Kodak had with color prints in the 1980s and even probably today. If it lasts 'til it gets out the door. Perfect. If you want to show it to anyone in the future, put the damn thing in the freezer, and whenever company comes over simply thaw it out.

Donald said

If too many prints are made archival there will be no depletion of work already done and let's face it there will be a saturation point.

Oh I get it, you're just trying to drive up the price of you work through attrition.

Donald said,

My cat does not have a particular affinity for the prints...she just yawns when I show her my latest and greatest

Donald try not feeding the little bugger for a few days and see if that improves his/her attutude a little.

Michael

ann · Mar 18, 2004

thanks for the insight. Thought that was a strange comment, but then.......

As an aside, my cats love to lick photos. Guess since they can't get to the grass they will try anything.

Donald Miller · Mar 18, 2004

blansky said:
Donald said,

I understand your statement about the archivalness (is that a word?) of a print...but the way that I feel about it...Who the hell really cares? As long as it looks good enough for someone to give me some money. By the time that the print "goes south" I will have gone "down".

Click to expand...

Funny, that's exactly the same philosophy that Kodak had with color prints in the 1980s and even probably today. If it lasts 'til it gets out the door. Perfect. If you want to show it to anyone in the future, put the damn thing in the freezer, and whenever company comes over simply thaw it out.

Michael, I figure "why reinvent the wheel"...Heck I will probably be gone about 5 minutes ahead of Kodak. Of course the end for them seems nearer all the time. I like the freezer idea. It will impart to those who I am trying to impress that my prints are not "hot of the press". Another subliminal impartation of value and I can use all the help I can get.

Donald said

If too many prints are made archival there will be no depletion of work already done and let's face it there will be a saturation point.

Click to expand...

Oh I get it, you're just trying to drive up the price of you work through attrition.

Michael, you've got it. It is called the scarcity principle...kinda like the oil and gasoline thing. Who said that Arabs and Germans are stupid. I am the latter by the way.

Donald said,

My cat does not have a particular affinity for the prints...she just yawns when I show her my latest and greatest

Click to expand...

Donald try not feeding the little bugger for a few days and see if that improves his/her attutude a little.

Michael, I tried that but then she went and ate the fish in the tank...I can buy tuna cheaper then salt water fish. I am really fearful for the Koi in the pond. Any other ideas?

Michael

Donald Miller · Mar 18, 2004

ann said:
thanks for the insight. Thought that was a strange comment, but then.......

As an aside, my cats love to lick photos. Guess since they can't get to the grass they will try anything.

Thats probably due to your cats having an addiction to selenium...

ann · Mar 18, 2004

no these are from my once every year or so roll of color prints.

Donald Miller · Mar 18, 2004

ann said:
no these are from my once every year or so roll of color prints.

Darn,

I was sure that had to be the reason.

photomc · Mar 18, 2004

Michael and Donald, you need to give us more warning the next time you two do this....

I have not had near enough to drink to follow this discussion...

Sean, can we have a special Michael and Donald alert added to warn us before we enter a discussion?

:upsidedo:

lee · Mar 18, 2004

I am under the impression that there is more selenium in shampoo than there is in Kodak's Se toner. The smell is not selenium but a small amount of sodium thyosulfate. That is fixer. Like Don I have been toning in this stuff for nearly 30 years and I don't think I have any issues with it.

Your mileage may very,
lee\c

David R Munson · Mar 19, 2004

Just one thought - if you find yourself experimenting with various combinations of dilution and different papers, don't forget to give a few prints an ironman toning to see what happens. Mix it strong, like 1:10, and just leave the print in there a while. I mean a while, too. Go have a sandwich and come back. This is how I found that AGFA 111 tones gorgeously in KRST 1:10, especially if you tone it for 20 minutes or more.

Les McLean · Mar 20, 2004

One point that has not been mentioned is that the darker areas of a print will tone before the lighter areas which clearly has a bearing on the length of time the print is left in the selenium solution. I never tone by time, always by inspection for a very low key print will take selenium before a very high key. I frequently tone in selenium for up to 4 hours a follow this with a wash and several hours in gold. I'm looking for a significant colour change when I do this and I don't sit and rock the tray for the whole period, I do another job and regularly have a look at what's happening.

Phil Davis also wrote an interesting series of articles a few years ago on the effects of selenium toning and one of his conclusions was that extended toning reduced contrast. I cannot recall the papers tested or whether the change in contrast was consistent with all papers the papers he tested. I do have them somewhere in the mountain of photographic bumf that is overloading the shelves in my office and if I can find them I'll post his results. The papers were published by Fred Newman of The View Camera Store when his business was Darkroom Innovations.

gareth harper · Mar 21, 2004

The only thing I could add is try not to over fix.
One minute in fresh Ilford Rapid fix at 1/4 dillution is all you need.
If you over fix you just give yourself washing and possible staining problems. The other thing is that an over-fixed print may refuse to react with the selnium toner.

Ka · Mar 26, 2004

Tonight I KRST'd despite the fact that my professor told me I wasn't at the "level" of markh and should therefore be using regular RC papers and regular chemisty, instead of my preferred Forte VC FB and Agfa III. I answered him later..... something something... if I don't challenge myself, how can I grow? I did a 1:9 and next time I'll pull it sooner.

Thanks again for your help. It's a pure blast!
ka

Aggie · Mar 26, 2004

classes are normally geared towards the lowest common denominator. Or in photography either the slowest, or at the pace the prof. sets for his class no matter how anyone particular person is doing. Selenium toning is easy. Which I bet you found out.

Ka · Mar 26, 2004

yup... no brainer

ann · Mar 26, 2004

come take my class!!

Altho, i recommend RC for beginners i would rather they learn to print on fiber. The only reason for the RC is speed and washing concerns that are an issue in a gang darkroom (at least ours)

Ka · Mar 26, 2004

Ann,

Good idea. Perhaps some else should as well.

ka

fhovie · Mar 26, 2004

Aggie is right on on this one - If I have one that I am looking for a particular shade of toning - I pull it before it gets there - The chemical takes at least 20 seconds to leach out of the emulsion and will continue to tone for that period of time till it is exhausted. Sometimes I am looking for a split tone look - I use a stronger solution - 1:6 maybe and I watch it close - The toner works on the shadows first. If you snatch the print just as the mid tones start to change - the mid tones will finish toning in the water bath leaving the highlights and lighter areas gray. With Forte - I get browna and gray dual tone prints that look good with some images.

Bruce Osgood · Mar 26, 2004

From toner to Hypo Cleaning Agent will arrest the toning at that point. 30 seconds or so is all that is needed and then into the final water rinse/bath.

Ka · Mar 26, 2004

Querry: If KRST contains Hypo, is it necessary to Hypo after the toning? And what if one fails to do so?

Donald Miller · Mar 27, 2004

Ka said:
Querry: If KRST contains Hypo, is it necessary to Hypo after the toning? And what if one fails to do so?

Typically one would tone after the second fixing bath and not fix after toning. However if you meant hypo clearing agent, then yes it is appropriate procedure to use hypo clearing agent following toning. This is then followed by the wash.

Ka · Mar 27, 2004

Ok, thanks.

Selenium Toning Fiber Prints

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