Selenium toning dilution vs time

I have been NOT getting the result I want with Selenium toner. Here's something I have been wondering about and I'd like to get input from folks who are experienced in this area.

I have been using Kodak Selenium Toner at 1:40 dilution and for up to 5 minutes. According to instructions, I can do this anywhere from 1:3 dilution to 1:40 dilution. According to instructions, for slight change in color and some protection, tone few minutes at 1:40 and for deep toning, 1:3 at 5 to 10 minutes. That makes me wonder... Is this so because it takes too long to tone to completion at lesser dilution?

if I dilute this to 1:40 and tone it for 5 hours, let's say. Would the result be the same as toning at 1:3 and to completion?

In other words, can weak and long produce the same result as strong and short?

I'm going to experiment with this in coming weeks but if there is a knowledge out there already, I'd like to hear it.

What exactly are the results you are looking for?

Selenium toner will go through 3 stages: 1. Intensification of density in darker areas. 2. Colour of the print will shift after about 5 minutes in the dilution that you mentioned and stop intensifying. 3. Protection and coating of the silver in the print. For someone who is starting toning, the changes might not even be noticeable unless you have a pretty good idea on what you are looking for or compare it to the exact same print that isn't toned.

I think the best thing is to experiment with what you're looking for. I don't have an answer for you in terms of dilution vs. time, unfortunately as I have found a method that works for me and I used 1:40 at 5-7 minutes and haven't really deviated from that at all. I would try 1:40 and 1:10 and compare. If you don't get what you're looking for, I doubt you would find it in 1:3 and you won't have to use up all that toner.

If after all this, you're not getting the "look" that you are seeking, selenium toner might not be the answer and it might be something in the printing, paper/developer combo, etc, etc. that you need to change.

Different papers respond to selenium toner in different ways, too -- don't forget that.

Jordan's right, it depends what you're after. If all you want is extra archival properties, then you shouldn't be fooled by an (apparent) lack in tone change.

I *have* experimented extensively - going through about 50 sheets of paper with just one image. I have a print that has very delicate highlight and deep shadow. No matter what I did, the highlight became dull and slightly too dark. This slight change was enough to make this print trash. - this was true with 3 minute at 1:40 dilution. I tried printing it *slightly* lighter and tone. Then the whole relationship between highlight and shadow shifted and the *feel* of the print was gone.

What i wanted was to get some protection, preserve the highlight, and only slight intensification of shadow were permissible.

I ended up NOT toning and using StabAG for protection. By the way, this was with Ilford MGIV FB.

Which paper are you using?

That is strange because my experience with MGFB is that the only toning I see is intensification in the shadows and removal of the slight green cast. I usually tone at a more concentrated dilution of around 1:10. The highlights for me are pretty much untouched unless I tone at something like 1:9 for a really long time with a warmer tone paper. That said, I've heard that developer can have an effect on toning. I use Dektol or Eco-Pro from Freestyle. Is it possible that you are not fully washing before toning? I usually use permawash then wash for at least 20 minutes before toning. If the highlights are affected, I have to wonder whether it is staining making the highlight look muddy.

As a more direct answer to the original question, I have not found a difference but I am not nearly patient enough to know for sure!

Andrew,
I use Ilford MGIV FB Glossy

Mark,
Indeed there was enough change in the highlight that, to me, destroyed the mood of the print. I use Dektol at standard dilution. I wash FULLY. 2 bath fix, HCA, 30 minutes wash in archival washer - dry overnight (because I run out of time usually), then next day, 5 minute water soak, then tone. It's not stain... it's slight intensification of highlight - low density areas.

Maybe it's the term I'm using that's confusing? When I say highlight, I do not mean bright highlight. I mean light areas. Perhaps zone 2 to 3. Definitely NOT zone 4 or higher.

Maybe what you're referring to is dry-down? Where the highlights in the print get slightly darker upon drying. I'm also confused about what you're referring to as highlights, being zone 2 or 3. Those are shadow values.

I use selenium at 1:9 dilution with Ilford MGIV FB for 5-7 minutes and it cools it way down very nicely. Iford's warmtone (MGWT) paper will go reddish-brown at this dilution and time. Can you tell us exactly what look you are going for with this particular image?

My unscientific experiences in no specific order:

First, I think there is a difference in the amount of image-tone change and the strength of the dilution of the toner. I have NOT done definitive tests, but often tone the same print in a different dilution when I'm not getting the image tone I want. Stronger dilutions seem to change the image tone more than weaker ones.

That said, I could maybe be convinced that this is not the case by a test. It should be easy, since most papers arrive at a point where toning is "complete." Toss a couple of identical prints into two different dilutions and just let them sit. Compare the "completes" at the end of an appropriate time.

I question whether treatment in selenium toner that has no marked visible effect (if you can call that toning...) still has a positive effect on permanence. I seem to recall that the "archival" benefits of selenium toning are in direct proportion to a change in image tone, or at least, in density.

Not only do different papers respond to the same toner differently, different developers influence the toning too. Papers that tone rapidly and markedly can end up completely reddish and quite low in contrast. Other papers I've had just increased a bit in density and actually turned cooler in image tone. Finding a paper that responds how you like it in selenium is one of the creative choices involved in printing (for me at least).

I also believe that toning certain papers affects the activity of the toning bath and influences image tone on subsequent prints as well. I've had prints that toned wonderfully not tone satisfactorily after a different paper was toned in the toning bath just prior. The difference was not only in activity, but also in the final image tone... I'm not really sure why this happens, but it has happened enough that I am convinced it is real, and not just exhaustion of the toner.

The usual effect of selenium toning (on papers that respond well) is to first expand the contrast range of the print by increasing the d-max and separations by proportionally increasing the density of the silver image. This means that highlights are also affected, but to a lesser extent than the shadows. At times, makes a larger difference in the feeling of a print. (I tend to print just a bit lighter and less contrasty to compensate for the toning.) After a time, however, the image-tone change reduces the density in the shadow areas as it turns to reddish/brownish.

Viewing light makes a large difference in the perceived image-tone change. Since selenium toning usually adds red of some kind to the print tone, the change is more marked under incandescent lighting with lower color temperature. It is less noticeable in daylight.

Toning is one of the least predictable print controls I have, and tends to be the most subjective.

I'd love to see some more scientific data on this.

Best,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

Brian,

I have a bad tendency to get zone values backwards. I meant zone 7 to 8. ...and no, it's not dry down. I always make my final judgement after the print has been dried overnight and pressed flat.