Selenium Toning: am I stupid?

chloe1 · Jan 13, 2007

I just tried to tone Ilford multi grade RC deluxe paper with Kodak Rapid Selenium toner. I used a 1-3 ratio for 6 minutes after washing and there was absolutely NO effect on the print. Am I missing something vital? PLEASE HELP!!!!

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jan 13, 2007

Worry thee not grasshopper: Ilford RC paper will not blink a wink in selenium. Even their FB paper reacts little. But forget about toning RC paper, it won't bring anything useful.

skahde · Jan 13, 2007

chloe1 said:
I just tried to tone Ilford multi grade RC deluxe paper with Kodak Rapid Selenium toner. I used a 1-3 ratio for 6 minutes after washing and there was absolutely NO effect on the print. Am I missing something vital? PLEASE HELP!!!!

Rule 1: For color changes with KRST use the right paper. Rule 2: It's name is not Ilford RC. Rule 3: For more details first use the forum search, please.

Stefan

chloe1 · Jan 13, 2007

Thanks Skahde, sorry for my ignorance. It says Ilford RC on the box...

David Brown · Jan 13, 2007

skahde said:
Rule 1: For color changes with KRST use the right paper. Rule 2: It's name is not Ilford RC. Rule 3: For more details first use the forum search, please.

Stefan

Gee, Stefan, the person's kind of new - cut them some slack!

Stew · Jan 13, 2007

Try Ilfords Warmtone paper, it tones well.

Rob.

Vaughn · Jan 13, 2007

I use to selenium tone Ilford Gallerie (graded FB, glossy). There was a slight tone change and a slight bump in contrast as the blacks got just a touch blacker. But it was subtle and one needed to have two identical prints, one toned and one not toned, to be able to compare them.

I toned Ilford Gallerie primarily for archival purposes, but did like the fact that the paper got just a touch cooler (to my eye the paper was slight warmer than neutral and the toning brought it back to neutral (I develop in Dektol).

If you would like a color change on your Ilford RC paper, try sepia toning -- one can even follow that with selenium toner for additionl colors.

Vaughn

chloe1 · Jan 13, 2007

David Brown said:
Gee, Stefan, the person's kind of new - cut them some slack!

Stefan secretly shoots nothing but digital... ;0

Roger Hicks · Jan 14, 2007

mhv said:
Worry thee not grasshopper: Ilford RC paper will not blink a wink in selenium. Even their FB paper reacts little. But forget about toning RC paper, it won't bring anything useful.

Funny, I've been selenium-toning Ilford RC for years because I like the colours. The WT reacts a lot more than plain MG IV, though, for obvious reasons. Admittedly I've only used Fotospeed, Paterson and Tetenal selenium, not Kodak.

Cheers,

R.

Dave Miller · Jan 14, 2007

Kodak presumably designed this brew to work with their paper; not Ilford's. As Roger said it Ilford RC does tone well, but as with all things photographic, you have to experiment to find the effect that suits you. Enjoy the experience.

Neal · Jan 14, 2007

Dear chloe1,

If you are looking for a large color change in selenium, try Kentmere FB papers. Their RC paper may tone just as well, but I have not tried it.

Neal Wydra

hal9000 · Jan 14, 2007

The Forte papers (both polywarmtone and coldtone) tone very nicely in KRST, but unfortunately they are stopping production

Lee Shively · Jan 14, 2007

Ilford's Warm Tone RC paper tones pretty much exactly like their FB Warm Tone papers in Kodak selenium. The MG IV RC doesn't show any real color change in KRST but there is a very slight change that's hard to see unless you compare an untoned print with a toned one. Toned MG IV prints seem to be a little less greenish to my eyes.

jstraw · Jan 14, 2007

It was seeing Alex Hawley's J&C (Forte) Polywarmtone prints, toned in selenium that led to my plan to use this paper. I'm now trying decide if I can afford to or even should...get in the queue to stock up on J&C/Arista.EDU/Forte/Bergger...warmtone. The stuff looks wonderful toned with selenium.

George Collier · Jan 14, 2007

Who knows more about Forte discontinuing production? (Hal9000, above comment).

Bob F. · Jan 14, 2007

George Collier said:
Who knows more about Forte discontinuing production? (Hal9000, above comment).

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

FrankB · Jan 14, 2007

MGIV's (RC and FB) DMAX will also drop after a few minutes in selenium (i.e. the shadows will get darker). Not a lot though, and if you continue toning they will lighten a little again.

Different papers give different effects; the knack is in learning which ones suit which jobs. Personally I don't care much for the for the traditional aubergine (eggplant) hues. Others love 'em. Chacun a son gout!

...and no, you're not stupid!

Roger Hicks · Jan 15, 2007

FrankB said:
MGIV's (RC and FB) DMAX will also drop after a few minutes in selenium (i.e. the shadows will get darker).

I'd have called that a rise in Dmax, though I can see why you used that construction. It had just never occurred to me that there might be two ways of looking at it. Which way 'round would others describe it?

Cheers,

R.

FrankB · Jan 15, 2007

If there's a right way and a wrong way, you can always count on me to... :rolleyes:

You are, of course, correct.

Roger Hicks · Jan 15, 2007

FrankB said:
If there's a right way and a wrong way, you can always count on me to... :rolleyes:

You are, of course, correct.

Dear Frank,

Thanks for being so sporting about it. This sort of thing always intrigues me, because my wife and I are constantly analyzing/describling things 'backwards' compared to one another and this was the kind of description she'd use (not in this case, but in many parallel examples). I wondered if anyone else would think the same way, because when you analyze it, a drop would normally imply darker.

Cheers,

R.

Keith Tapscott. · Jan 15, 2007

chloe1 said:
I just tried to tone Ilford multi grade RC deluxe paper with Kodak Rapid Selenium toner. I used a 1-3 ratio for 6 minutes after washing and there was absolutely NO effect on the print. Am I missing something vital? PLEASE HELP!!!!

I read some where that Multigrade IV which although is responsive to some toners, is designed to be much more resistant to colour changes where as the Multigrade Warmtone emulsion is designed to be much more responsive to the use of various toners, hence the use of Selenium toner is at best `subtle`with Multigrade IV. Multigrade Cooltone is said to tone well too.

Chuck_P · Jan 19, 2007

I just finished toning an Ilford MG IV RC Deluxe print. Using Anchell's recommendation, I washed it for about 10 minutes, re-fixed it in a non-hardening fixer (TF-4) from Photographer's Formulary, then sent it straight to the toner. I diluted Kodak's brand diluted 1:20 and kept the print in the toner for 10 minutes. D-max did increase some but with no apparent change in color (which is ok for this print).

I wonder if there is no change in color, then is there at least the archival protection being imparted to the RC print. Anchell says that there should be no real expectation of long-term storgae of RC prints unless they are selenium toned.

Chuck

Chuck_P · Jan 21, 2007

I have finished toning several prints with selenium and am quite pleased with the results, considering they are my first attempts at toning. I must change my statement of the previous post, that I did not observe a change in color. There was a color change, a definite "cooling" effect did take place. It was just slight enough not to catch my eye until I compared it to an untoned print.

CP

Philippe-Georges · Jan 21, 2007

Just a prudent proposal , as I am not a B&W master, but try an other paper developer, neutral to warm-tone working formula. Ore shorten the developing time. It might work (it works for me), who knows...

Good luck,
Philippe

Robert Ley · Jan 21, 2007

I have had good success with toning Ilford RC paper. I have to agree that the WT paper tones much better than the MGIV. I use Ctein technique that he describes in "Post Exposure" I keep my 1:5 (MGIV)
1:10 (WT) KRST in a warm water bath (85-95degF). This really speeds up the toning and I usually only have to tone for several minutes. I have also toned with kodak Sepia and Brown toner and have gotten some pleasing tones with toning with Sepia first and then in Brown toner. I like and prefer the tone that I get with the KRST and the MGIV. The KRST takes the olive tone out of the MGIV and seems to increase the D-Max.

Selenium Toning: am I stupid?

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