Selenium toner toxicity - reading msds

miha · Nov 13, 2017

Trying to understand what's in the Harman selenium toner safety data sheet, here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HARMAN-Toner-Selenium-EN-E17-44-10477.pdf
The paper states there is 1-5% od sodium selenite in the bottle. Oral acute toxicity for rat is 7 mg / Kg if taken orally. Any help on how to interpolate these data to a darkroom worker would be much appreciated.

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

miha said:
Trying to understand what's in the Harman selenium toner safety data sheet, here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HARMAN-Toner-Selenium-EN-E17-44-10477.pdf
The paper states there is 1-5% od sodium selenite in the bottle. Oral acute toxicity for rat is 7 mg / Kg if taken orally. Any help on how to interpolate these data to a darkroom worker would be much appreciated.

Well thats quite easy to explain.
You should multiplicate the weight of a rat - let us name a very heavy rat as : "Oskar" So Oskar should be heavy with its real 500g !
A heavy beast of a rat.
If your weight is let us say 95kg (sorry for this ) - we can also calculate 100kg.
At last we multiplicate Oscars lethal (oral ) dosis with factor 200 - this is for you finally!
To Oscar (look above ) 3,5 mg of your chemisty is its end.
Your letal dosis should be in the near of
700mg thats absolute exactly 0,7 g of pure sodiumum selenite.
The fact is you are no rat at least. May be Oskar is a tough guy ?
But if you may have 1 Liter of original Ilford Selen Toner the concentration of 1 - 5 % of the relevant tocic compound should be between 1 - 5 g.
For you in your darkroom that means : you could obviously murder your wife (estmated 50kg) up to 3 - 15 times with just one bottle of Ilfords Toner.
Because she couldn't be in the near of Oskars toughness !!!....... !!!
Or in other words : NEVER DRINK YOUR SELEN TONER FROM ILFORD HARRMAN
because the given advice from the PDF
indicates : It is real TOXIC !!!!!!!!
Beware of you skin like advices given in addition.

with regards

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

Sorry for little mistake - so lets better say : 100ml SELEN TONER as a bottle.Ok?
with regards

PS : 1 l = 1000ml 1 - 5 % = 10 - 50 g
(you won't muder your wife 30 - 150 times I hope.....)

miha · Nov 13, 2017

How do we know if the amount of a solute (sodium selenite) is expressed as a percentage of the total solution weight or volume?

AgX · Nov 13, 2017

One has to drink 100ml-500ml of the toner concentrate to get the toxic dose.

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

miha said:
How do we know if the amount of a solute (sodium selenite) is expressed as a percentage of the total solution weight or volume?

It doesn't matter because it is REAL TOXIC. The percentage Illford /HARMAN
gave it is per : Volume.
The letal dosis is given in mg.
But it is in the near of if you just say 1g = 1ml.
The more relavant issue here (oral dosis) is how fast your stomach works and how fit your liver still is.
But a rat is very tough - believe me !

with regards

miha · Nov 13, 2017

AgX said:
One has to drink 100ml-500ml of the toner concentrate to get the toxic dose.

There is a lot of domestic chemicals that would be lethal at such doses. I wonder why selenium get such a bad rep?

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

The dosis 0,7 g (oral/hour) to a heavy
100kg man is not the issue.
It is so much concenterated from Selen Toner so you will not see with much more
examples.
Often there is a need of 5-10Liters or more.
And it is not possible to DRINK such Volume.

with regards

Xtol haven't such a heavy toxity so you probably could shover with Xtol in comparison or give a bath to a rat.

with regards

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

AgX said:
One has to drink 100ml-500ml of the toner concentrate to get the toxic dose.

It is 0,7 g with percentage of min. 1%.
So it is fullfilled with ca.70ml. or 14ml.
max.5% ...but. ...pssst. this is REAL confidentional know.
(mihas wife just need the half of this volume)

with regards....

miha · Nov 13, 2017

Seems like using the toner at 1+10 or weaker makes it fairly benign.

MattKing · Nov 13, 2017

Why are people in this thread talking about drinking selenium toner?
As far as I can tell, drinking isn't the modality that photographers need to be concerned with.

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

The next beasty soup in darkroom is bw
reversal bleach on basis of chromium VI.
Also perganmagnate bleach is not a
"must have " in darkroom to me !

with regards

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

MattKing said:
Why are people in this thread talking about drinking selenium toner?
As far as I can tell, drinking isn't the modality that photographers need to be concerned with.

Perhaps it has to do with our wifes Matt..

...

If they permanent disturb darkroom work
they obviously need to try a bit of Ilfords
Selen Toner just to not disturb again.

........

with regards

cowanw · Nov 13, 2017

FYI.
The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for adults is 80-200 mcgs. For adult females it is 55 mcg; adult males, 70 mcg; for pregnant females, 65 mcg; for lactating females, 75 mcg.
Multi vitamins may contain 55 mcg daily

miha · Nov 13, 2017

MattKing said:
Why are people in this thread talking about drinking selenium toner?
As far as I can tell, drinking isn't the modality that photographers need to be concerned with.

Sure not. But with kids around... Or if by accident a drop lands on the face during a splash. If my memory serves me I read here on APUG there are places where photography is taught but no selenium is allowed on the premises.

removed account4 · Nov 13, 2017

miha said:
There is a lot of domestic chemicals that would be lethal at such doses. I wonder why selenium get such a bad rep?

cause it presents itself like radiation poisoning.
(dr house says so too )
he used an antidote tea made of some bug larva to counteract the selenium
( brazil nuts have a high dose of selenium too )
its bad-stuff ...
i have never used it and probably never will ..
( both the larva and selenium toner ... but i do like brazil nuts )

Gerald C Koch · Nov 13, 2017

The danger to photographers would through absorption thru the skin. Wear nitrile gloves when working with it.

The toxicity varies with the laboratory animal whether it be mouse, rat or rabbit. It's not just a matter of body weight. So the values given are only advisory. However whenever a LDLo value (lowest lethal human dose) is given it represents one established human death.

Selenium is excreted from the body as foul smelling organic compounds in the sweat and the breath. So even a sublethal dosage has its problems.

Contact with toner and acids generates hydrogen selenide, a poisonous gas.

Use with adequate ventilation.

cowanw · Nov 13, 2017

Selenium shampoo may contain 1 to 2.5% Selenium.

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

Yes but 7mg/kg rat strongly indicates that there are possible reasons it has to be banned from darkrooms.
Some do this so , some will not renounce of selen toner .
Comming to a bw developer agend banned from bw developers since 50th 60th : PPD
The LD50. dose kg/rat is 80mg that means
(some rats survived just with higher dosis - some rats were not as tough )
[MEDIAN DOSE]
PPD is factor 11 less toxic from final dose in comparison to Selen Toner TOXIC.
And what about metol as a modern substitude to avoid PPD since the 70th ?
Some say metol is toxic and one has to use modern developer wich are without
metol.
The lethal dose of metol is a little hart to find.
But here it is : LD50 kg/rat 237mg
AND. ........ ...LD50 kg/mouse 565mg
That means : rats from the 50th were not
as hardened as rats today and as mice from this period. (Studies from the 50th).
But this is remarkable !
THEREFORE THINK IN RELATIVE TERMS
IN CONCERN OF SELEN TONERS !
It is real TOCIC! !!!! (as mentioned before)

with regards

cowanw · Nov 13, 2017

Here is a good summary of the available information

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+768

miha · Nov 13, 2017

cowanw said:
Here is a good summary of the available information

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+768

Indeed. Thanks.

AgX · Nov 13, 2017

AgX said:
One has to drink 100ml-500ml of the toner concentrate to get the toxic dose.

I stand corrected (how embarrasing, too stupid, read percentage, calculated promille...):

It is 10ml-50ml.

JensH · Nov 13, 2017

cowanw said:
Selenium shampoo may contain 1 to 2.5% Selenium.

Will it help me to age well?
Just joking...

Jens

cowanw · Nov 13, 2017

The lethal dose 50 for rats and table salt is 3 grams per kg. OMG! That's only six big Macs per rat.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 13, 2017

cowanw said:
The lethal dose 50 for rats and table salt is 3 grams per kg. OMG! That's only six big Macs per rat.

There is a case on record where a women comited suicide by ingesting a large quantity salt.

Selenium toner toxicity - reading msds

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