Selenium toner expired?

[Cybertrash]

I found an unopened bottle of kodak rapid selenium toner when my photo club was throwing away some old chemistry. It appears to date from the mid 90s. How can I find out if this stuff is still OK to use or if it's horribly expired? I tried toning a Kentmere VC Select (RC) print in toner 1+3 for 30 minutes and couldn't really see a difference in tone or contrast, would that mean that the toner is long gone?

 

[Jim Noel]

The toner is most likely still as good as new. My gallon jug from the 1970's is as good as new. Some papers, particularly RC types, tone poorly if at all. Try a dilution of 1+20 on a fiber based paper.

 

[Oscar Carlsson]

Make sure you compare it to a identically processed copy, otherwise it might be very difficult to spot the difference.

However, I've found that some papers shift from greenish to purpleisch when toned in stronger selenium (1+9 or stronger), and that contrast will be increased.

 

[Brook Hill]

If it smells of amonia then that is an idication that it is still active

 

[Cybertrash]

The toner is most likely still as good as new. My gallon jug from the 1970's is as good as new. Some papers, particularly RC types, tone poorly if at all. Try a dilution of 1+20 on a fiber based paper.

How come RC paper tones differently, assuming the emulsion is the same?

Make sure you compare it to a identically processed copy, otherwise it might be very difficult to spot the difference.

However, I've found that some papers shift from greenish to purpleisch when toned in stronger selenium (1+9 or stronger), and that contrast will be increased.

The bottle I have says that you're supposed to dilute 1+3, but wherever I read posts about toning 1+9, 1+15 and 1+20 seems to be more common, what is the effect of diluting the toner further? Less colour I assume, but I suppose archival stability suffers as well?

If it smells of amonia then that is an idication that it is still active

Well it sure stunk like hell, so I guess that's good...

 

[bsdunek]

As I understand it, it depends on if you are toning for archival purposes or for 'tone'. I mix mine 1:3 because I want the toned look. I especially like it after sepia toning. Gives a really good, warm tone.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

How come RC paper tones differently, assuming the emulsion is the same?

The bottle I have says that you're supposed to dilute 1+3, but wherever I read posts about toning 1+9, 1+15 and 1+20 seems to be more common, what is the effect of diluting the toner further? Less colour I assume, but I suppose archival stability suffers as well?

Well it sure stunk like hell, so I guess that's good...

Cybertrash,

Your toner is just fine. Do not toss it!

Papers tone differently due to emulsion formulation, finish, degree of hardening of the emulsion, the developer used, etc., etc. There are so many variables that you really can't compare with anything else except the exact same paper and batch. Some papers do not change color at all in selenium toner.

The dilution you use depends on the paper you are using and the amount of change in image tone you want. Stronger dilutions will give a quicker and more-pronounced shift in tone. Forget most of the stuff you've heard about "archival stability." Studies done years ago on microfilm show that you must tone to completion for the silver in the image to be really protected. For many papers in selenium this means bright red! Partial toning gives you partial protection. If you are interested in optimum permanence, process well. Most prefer a slight color shift or just a neutralization of the greenish cast many papers have or even just a slight boost in Dmax of the print. In these cases, a very weak dilution might be used.

If you haven't already seen my diatribes on replenishing and reusing selenium toner, then search here and on the LF forum.

In a nutshell: Don't discard your toner ever. When toning times become too long, replenish it with a bit of stock solution, which will increase activity and make for shorter times. You can do this forever if you just filter the solution with a coffee filter or the like (I use paper towels in a funnel sometimes) before use. I filter after use too. Toner used like this precipitates out a bit of black powder, which is harmless, but needs to be filtered out of the working solution. I have two gallons of toner in "strong" and "weak" dilutions that have been going like this for way more that ten years.

And, your toner doesn't have to "stink like hell" or even a bit like ammonia to work well. My replenished solutions lose the ammonia odor shortly after mixing in new stock and work just fine. In fact, the last time I toned, I didn't even have to replenish (72 11x14 prints); no smell at all.

If your paper is not reacting to the toner, then it is just a paper that doesn't.

FWIW, here are my toning tips:

Mix 1+9 to start with. Then you can dilute more or add some stock if you need for the paper you are using. With 1+9 and long times (say 15 minutes) any paper that is going to exhibit some change will. If your paper doesn't, then change papers.

When toning, keep a wet, untoned print handy in the same light for comparison. Often, the tone change is slow and subtle and it is easy to not notice a significant shift in tone till too late (kind of like the frog in boiling water thing...).

Different papers tone differently as do different subjects. There is no one time and dilution that works. Plus, every print you tone weakens the toner just a bit. Don't just blindly tone, e.g., "5 minutes at 1+20" or some such. I tone visually and pull the print when the tone shift is just before where I want it to be (some toning occurs in the rinse/wash aid). Using your eyes to determine the right toning is really the only way to get results you like. Toning times are not constant due to the exhaustion of the toner, and every image has its own needs, depending on the distribution of light to dark tones.

I like toning times in the five-minute range. Three minutes is on the short side; if my times are this short, I'll be adding water to my toning tray. Ten minutes is too long for me; I'll be replenishing at about nine or ten minutes unless I'm at the end of the session.

Best,

Doremus

 

[jochen]

Hello,
I think there was a change in concentration of KRST because of hazard-labelling due to the poisonous sodium selenite. The concentration was reduced and therefore the dilution was changed , but I do not know when this happened. Most probably the bottle from the mid nineties is of the actual formulation but the bottle from the seventies ist the stronger stuff.