Selenium not working maybe

horacekenneth · Apr 22, 2017

Put a sheet of the newish iLford classic paper into some warm selenium 1:10. When I didn't notice any changes after a few minutes I upped it to 1:5. No obvious changes and it's been in there an hour. Occasional stirring.

Selenium is about year old and has been sealed and 95% full the whole time. Opened once a year ago, used 50mL of it and put it away. Kodak rapid selenium toner

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Is the selenium bad?

Bill Burk · Apr 22, 2017

Try bleaching the print. If it won't bleach, the selenium took.

ic-racer · Apr 22, 2017

Not all Ilford papers show effects. My most used paper, Ilford Multigrade IV shows no effect. The Ilford Warmtone (in maroon box) tones just fine with selenium.

Bill Burk · Apr 22, 2017

I mention bleaching because once I had a botched selenium print that stained. I figured the print was toast anyway, so I thought maybe I could bleach out the stain. Sure enough the bleach had no effect.

horacekenneth · Apr 23, 2017

Thanks guys, I'm thinking perhaps it's working and there won't be an effect. I'll try it with a different paper too.

Bill, what's the difference between bleach for prints and regular Clorox bleach? I've gone ahead and stuck an untoned print and my selenium test print in a strong mix of Clorox and I'm not noticing any change on either. Some internet research had no mention of regular household bleach when discussing bleaching but haven't found any explanation of why not.

[edit] nevermind! I spoke too soon, sure enough the untoned print is gone and the toned print is still around

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2017

horacekenneth said:
Thanks guys, I'm thinking perhaps it's working and there won't be an effect. I'll try it with a different paper too.

Bill, what's the difference between bleach for prints and regular Clorox bleach? I've gone ahead and stuck an untoned print and my selenium test print in a strong mix of Clorox and I'm not noticing any change on either. Some internet research had no mention of regular household bleach when discussing bleaching but haven't found any explanation of why not.

[edit] nevermind! I spoke too soon, sure enough the untoned print is gone and the toned print is still around

Clorox has no practical use in the darkroom. Even a dilute solution has a high pH. It is far too caustic and can strip the emulsion right off the paper. If you read the label it says to not use it on silk or wool which are made of protein just like gelatin.

MattKing · Apr 23, 2017

As I understand it, there are two general types of bleaching processes.
The ones with photographic applications are reducing bleaches.
The others, like household bleach, are not.
Both involve oxidation.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 23, 2017

horacekenneth said:
... what's the difference between bleach for prints and regular Clorox bleach? ...

"Bleach" for photographic purposes is usually potassium ferricyanide alone or with other chemicals. With sodium thiosulfite (hypo), you have Farmers reducer. With potassium bromide, you have a rehalogenating bleach. Don't use Chlorox on photographic materials unless you want to ruin them.

There is plenty of info here and elsewhere on the net about bleaching photographic materials. Do a quick search if you're interested.

As for your toner: it is more likely that the paper you are using simply doesn't respond with much (or any) shift in image tone to selenium. If you want more change, try a different paper.

Best,

Doremus

miha · Apr 23, 2017

horacekenneth said:
Put a sheet of the newish iLford classic paper into some warm selenium 1:10. When I didn't notice any changes after a few minutes I upped it to 1:5. No obvious changes and it's been in there an hour. Occasional stirring.

Selenium is about year old and has been sealed and 95% full the whole time. Opened once a year ago, used 50mL of it and put it away. Kodak rapid selenium toner

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Is the selenium bad?

My experience is limited to the previous matt version of the Ilford paper and Harman toner. 1+4 for several minutes. The result is subtle but evident when comparing toned and untoned prints side by side. The green cast goes away and the blacks go deeper.

Ian Grant · Apr 23, 2017

You only see a significant change when Selenium toning with Warm tone papers. I wouldn't expect to see much change at 1:10 with the Classic paper. See Miha's comments.

Selenoum toner (KRST)keeps for years my bottle of working strength toner is well over 10 years old, I filter it occasionally and just top it up every so often with fresh toner. It doesn't go off

Ian

Bill Burk · Apr 23, 2017

horacekenneth said:
Thanks guys, I'm thinking perhaps it's working and there won't be an effect. I'll try it with a different paper too.

Bill, what's the difference between bleach for prints and regular Clorox bleach? I've gone ahead and stuck an untoned print and my selenium test print in a strong mix of Clorox and I'm not noticing any change on either. Some internet research had no mention of regular household bleach when discussing bleaching but haven't found any explanation of why not.

[edit] nevermind! I spoke too soon, sure enough the untoned print is gone and the toned print is still around

Which bleach did you try? I meant the photographic bleach like potassium ferrocyanide that Doremus Scudder mentioned.

I was angry enough with that stain that I tried both.

First I tried a Berg Blue toner which I think bleaches and dyes the print normally, but it had no effect. Then I tried Chlorox. Still no effect.

darkroommike · Apr 23, 2017

horacekenneth said:
Thanks guys, I'm thinking perhaps it's working and there won't be an effect. I'll try it with a different paper too.

Bill, what's the difference between bleach for prints and regular Clorox bleach? I've gone ahead and stuck an untoned print and my selenium test print in a strong mix of Clorox and I'm not noticing any change on either. Some internet research had no mention of regular household bleach when discussing bleaching but haven't found any explanation of why not.

[edit] nevermind! I spoke too soon, sure enough the untoned print is gone and the toned print is still around

The only thing I ever used chlorine bleach for was to completely destroy the emulsion on some old slides that I didn't want my hypothetical grandchildren to find after I die.

horacekenneth · Apr 23, 2017

Bill Burk said:
Which bleach did you try? I meant the photographic bleach like potassium ferrocyanide that Doremus Scudder mentioned.

I was angry enough with that stain that I tried both.

First I tried a Berg Blue toner which I think bleaches and dyes the print normally, but it had no effect. Then I tried Chlorox. Still no effect.

I only have chlorox on hand. But I'm getting very inconsistent results. My first test with the toner (the one I first posted about), I ended up leaving it in straight undiluted selenium for several hours just to see what would change (nothing, as far as I can see). But!, this is the only test piece that the chlorox did not destroy, similar to yours.

Did several more tests with dilutions ranging from 1+5 to 1+20 for between 1 and 6 minutes. Chlorox bleached all of them. Only a single test print (from the exact same paper as the rest) showed a slight purplish cast after six minutes in one of the stronger dilutions (and it still bleached) (if this one turned purple why didn't the others? why didn't the one in straight selenium??).

I'm not sure what my answer is. Should a print toned with selenium survive chlorox (or can I assume my 1+20 6min prints are good even though chlorox bleaches them?)? Should I leave them all in straight selenium for several hours (to protect from chlorox) and hope one of them doesn't turn purple?

michael_r said:
In my experience multigrade classic should show a substantial and very noticeable colour change in selenium at those dilutions.

Interesting! I wonder what I am doing wrong?

MattKing · Apr 23, 2017

Don't use Chlorox!
It isn't the type of bleaching agent you want to use for photographic purposes.

horacekenneth · Apr 24, 2017

MattKing said:
Don't use Chlorox!
It isn't the type of bleaching agent you want to use for photographic purposes.

I hear you but, not having access to the proper stuff, I don't know what to do with this information that I have one print toned in straight selenium that was resistant to chlorox and a bunch of other prints that I *think* are protected with selenium that are not resistant.

MattKing · Apr 24, 2017

horacekenneth said:
I hear you but, not having access to the proper stuff, I don't know what to do with this information that I have one print toned in straight selenium that was resistant to chlorox and a bunch of other prints that I *think* are protected with selenium that are not resistant.

The resistance to chlorox may not have anything to do with the selenium toning. The information you have isn't going to help you with anything, unless you are testing for whether or not you can do prints that will survive going through the laundry!
"Bleaching" is a description of something that happens. Using the word "Bleach" to describe the agent that causes things to be bleached is common, but quite misleading.
There are many unrelated agents that can cause bleaching, including the sun.

Bill Burk · Apr 24, 2017

horacekenneth said:
I hear you but, not having access to the proper stuff, I don't know what to do with this information that I have one print toned in straight selenium that was resistant to chlorox and a bunch of other prints that I *think* are protected with selenium that are not resistant.

Well, wait... so you really used Chlorox on one of the suspect prints and it really did bleach away image? That's interesting.

horacekenneth · Apr 24, 2017

MattKing said:
The resistance to chlorox may not have anything to do with the selenium toning. The information you have isn't going to help you with anything, unless you are testing for whether or not you can do prints that will survive going through the laundry!
"Bleaching" is a description of something that happens. Using the word "Bleach" to describe the agent that causes things to be bleached is common, but quite misleading.
There are many unrelated agents that can cause bleaching, including the sun.

So I think my takeaway is either I should assume my diluted toning worked just fine and move on with my life or obsess over it until I get the proper kind of bleach

MattKing · Apr 24, 2017

horacekenneth said:
So I think my takeaway is either I should assume my diluted toning worked just fine and move on with my life or obsess over it until I get the proper kind of bleach

Or...
Move on with your life, and then check the toning when you get the chance after you get the proper kind of bleach .

Selenium not working maybe

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