Selenium Capacity, Permanence, and Color

[George Collier]

I recently did some toning tests. First time with Forte Fiber V VC and TF-4 fixer. Fixer and selenium mixed with distilled water. Prints had been thoroughly washed and air dried earlier, then resoaked in water and toned.
I used a dilution of 1:20 selenium and distilled, 100cc selenium to 2000cc water. Room temp and liquids were about 72F. I tested two or three 8X10s and some volunteer test strips first and got a verrry slight (and very nice) brown shift at about 5-6 minutes, along with the usual deepening of blacks. Next I put in 8 11x14's into the same tray, and after 8 minutes, there was a barely perceptable shift, but nothing had happened for a minute or two, removed the prints to water, added an additional 20cc selenium, mixed it up, then put the prints back in. Within a minute they reached the shift of the first bunch and I pulled them.

My questions:
Did I reach/exceed the capacity of the selenium, and is there a relationship between the color shift and the amount of permanence achieved? And if there is no relationship between color and permanence, how do you know if the prints are permanent? I always assumed the color shift (see below) indicated that the job was done, and further toning was for color only.

I would like to be able to get the "eggplant" color I loved with this toner and Seagull graded, but have given it up, as I find the Forte paper to be superior, even to Seagull VC, which doesn't shift as much as the graded.

 

[Claire Senft]

Approximately 2 years ago from Kodak the capacity for Kodak RST at dilutions of 20:1 and 40:1. They responded that the capacity in either case was 40 sheets of 8x10 per liter.

 

[George Collier]

Thanks, Claire. Wow, that is a lot more capacity than I got, considering that I made 2 liters. Hmm....

 

[blokeman]

selenium capacity

Hi George, I'll add just a couple of obvious things; colour shift has no relation to permanence... in other words, permanence can be achieved without colour shift & in a more diluted solution. >>>>>>>> Also, doing tests like that with many prints: I was taught that not only would you be using the same paper but also the same developer (exactly), same dilution, same temperatures etc etc .............. this would then be a controlled test. Also, exposure times and developing times have an influence on colour change. In my experience, I have two KRST's permanently mixed up ... one at 1:25 and one at 1:5 which is the one I use if I'm wanting a complete change of tone (& fast!). I use 1:25 for slow subtle changes, or for no tone change with archival permanence.
Hope this is helpful for you. David.

 

[blokeman]

selenium capacity

Hi George, I'll add just a couple of obvious things; colour shift has no relation to permanence... in other words, permanence can be achieved without colour shift & in a more diluted solution. >>>>>>>> Also, doing tests like that with many prints: I was taught that not only would you be using the same paper but also the same developer (exactly), same dilution, same temperatures etc etc .............. this would then be a controlled test. In my experience, I have two KRST's permanently mixed up ... one at 1:25 and one at 1:5 which is the one I use if I'm wanting a complete change of tone (& fast!). I use 1:25 for slow subtle changes, or for no tone change with archival permanence.
Hope this is helpful for you. David.