Selemium toning question???

stradibarrius · Mar 6, 2010

I have asked a bunch of questions lately about lith printing and toning using RC paper. My Moesch selenium toner arrived yesterday and I decide what the heck, I'm just going to give a try. I will learn something if it works or if it's a failure.

My question is, what a print that is completely dry, a week old, i am going to place it back in fix for a few minutes and then in the selenium. What concentrate of the Moesch MT1 selenium should I use?

Ian Grant · Mar 6, 2010

Don't put it Fixer, just a plain water soak for a few minute. Look at the instructions for dilution but remember not all papers have a colour shifty in Selenium toners, warm tone papers work best, they get warmer - red/brown depending on the paper & developer used.

Ian

Monophoto · Mar 6, 2010

Ian is right - it's not necessary to refix the print. Most selenium toners contain fixer anyway.

The dilution should be whatever is recommended by the manufacturer.

There's nothing really unusual or abnormal about starting with a fixed, washed and dried print. You just have to resoak the emulsion before you put it in the toner - otherwise, you may get uneven toning.

Anon Ymous · Mar 6, 2010

No, don't refix it, there's no point in doing so. Instead, put it in tray of water for 2-3 minutes to soak and then transfer it to the toner tray. Regarding dilution, there's no firm answer, but everything depends on what you want to do. It's more likely to get color shifts with low dilutions, and/or split toning effects. On the other hand, highly dilute selenium toner will more likely intensify the print (stronger blacks), without affecting color that much. The time a print spends in the toning bath can also make a huge difference. Another characteristic of selenium toner is that it works from the denser areas to lighter ones and higher dilutions will show a more uniform effect. But keep in mind that it's action depends a lot on the paper too. Not all papers are "toner friendly". Ilford's RC paper won't show strong toning effects. So, the best answer is experiment a lot, with a specific negative to see what happens. Make identical prints from an easy to print negative and test different dilutions and time to see what happens.

jerry lebens · Mar 6, 2010

The concentration depends on the effect you wish to achieve ; whether you're trying to get a radical colour change, mildly intensify the image or merely achieve archival permanence. I'm not familiar with the Moersch brand but the general rule is low concentrations for archival permanence, high ones for colour change and low to moderate concentration for intensification.

If you're trying to intensify a print the effect can be very subtle and sometimes hard to spot, especially with the long times involved at low concentrations. In this case the best way to use selenium is to compare the print being toned to a second untoned (wet) print in a separate dish - regularly turning your eyes away from both prints in order not to become too accustomed to any changes.

Make sure you're in a well ventilated room, there's a strong smell of ammonia whilst selenium toning, and remember that selenium is poisonous if absorbed through the skin. Don't use it without tongs and latex gloves.

Good luck!
Jerry

stradibarrius · Mar 6, 2010

After the toning should i wash the print again and then let it dry?

jerry lebens · Mar 6, 2010

Mark Fisher · Mar 6, 2010

Regarding concentration, as others have said, it depends on the effect you want. Particularly with lith, it also depends on the paper.

If you were using Kentmere or Kodak, I'd recommend starting at 1:50 and tone for 5 minutes or so. If you don't see much progress, try 1:25 etc.

I've never used Moersch, but maybe start at half or a quarter of the recommended concentration and work from there.

Mike1234 · Mar 6, 2010

I would outline the archival procedures I used 26 years ago but most here would call it overkill... so I'll not. Suffice it to say it was absolutely bullet-proof if you display or store your final prints properly.

stradibarrius · Mar 6, 2010

Well just to let you know the results. I used a 1:50 dilution. Let the Ilford MGIV RC print soak in water for about 3 min. and the about 10 min in the Selenium. I was able to get a small intensification of the blacks. It helped the print have a bit more pop...I think that this process could, with the right print, be a worthwhile process...
As most of you told me the effect was slight but I had to try it myself and see what happened.

Ian Grant · Mar 6, 2010

The effects with Warm-tone papers are quite different, and two of the best proponents of Selenium toning are Thomas Joshua Cooper, an american working in Scotland, and Olivia Parker's work, look for her book "Weighing the Planets", here's an example.

Ian

brian steinberger · Mar 6, 2010

stradibarrius, if you want to see an effect with Ilford MGIV RC dilute your Selenium 1:9 or 1:15 (though not sure what the Moesch normal dilutions are) and tone for 3-5 minutes. Keep another untoned print in a tray of water next to the selenium toner tray, that way you'll easily be able to see the toning occur. Sometimes for me, I need to see a process maxed out all the way, then tune it in from there.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 6, 2010

stradibarrius said:
After the toning should i wash the print again and then let it dry?

Same treatment as after fixing, because selenium toner contains hypo.

stradibarrius · Mar 21, 2010

If the selenium toning were part of the original printing session would I go from the fix straight into the selenium and then wash as normal?

RalphLambrecht · Mar 21, 2010

stradibarrius said:
If the selenium toning were part of the original printing session would I go from the fix straight into the selenium and then wash as normal?

To prevent image staining and toner contamination, I selenium tone after a 10-minute wash.

stradibarrius · Mar 21, 2010

Thanks Ralph...

Reinhold · Mar 22, 2010

Somewhere, a long time ago...

I discovered that Selenium toners can cause staining unless the Ph is alkaline.
(Which explains why some formulated the toner with hypo clearing agent).
Unfortunately mixing Selenium toner with HCA reduced it's life.

An alkaline environment is the key...

Putting two + two twogether, I tried a simple test...

After fixing and a good 2 minute rinse and/or a holding soak in water, I went into a hypo clear bath.
One to two minutes (5 minutes for fiber papers) in the hypo clear ensured an alkaline Ph.
Then directly into plain (1+20, or so) Selenium toner.

Been doing it that way for years.
Zero staining.
Fuss free.
Simple.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

clayne · Mar 22, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
To prevent image staining and toner contamination, I selenium tone after a 10-minute wash.

BTW Ralph, I'm pretty sure it's residual silver that causes staining with Selenium. Sure, acid from stop-bath carryover into the fixer can affect things, but a simple holding tray handles this easily.

I have never seen a single Selenium toner stain from prints that went through 2-bath fixing. Granted, I don't just throw it into the toner right out of the fixer, but a into a water bath - which has no issues preventing acid stains. However, by the time it hits the second fixation bath it's already been sitting in a holding tray anyways.

Like I said before, I believe typical Selenium stains are due to improper fixation. Even fixer carryover isn't that much of an issue for it to deal with. It just results in black crud as it tones residual silver in the fixer.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 22, 2010

clayne said:
BTW Ralph, I'm pretty sure it's residual silver that causes staining with Selenium. Sure, acid from stop-bath carryover into the fixer can affect things, but a simple holding tray handles this easily.

I have never seen a single Selenium toner stain from prints that went through 2-bath fixing. Granted, I don't just throw it into the toner right out of the fixer, but a into a water bath - which has no issues preventing acid stains. However, by the time it hits the second fixation bath it's already been sitting in a holding tray anyways.

Like I said before, I believe typical Selenium stains are due to improper fixation. Even fixer carryover isn't that much of an issue for it to deal with. It just results in black crud as it tones residual silver in the fixer.

Clayne

I think you are correct, and two-bath fixing may be key, but unfortunately, not everybody does it. With single-bath fixing, sufficient amounts of silver complexes accumulate in the fixing bath, potentially causing stains just as residual silver from incomplete fixing does.

Nevertheless, even if preceded by proper processing and fresh chemicals, I prefer a 10-minute wash prior to toning to avoid toner contamination through the fixer.

Reinhold

The idea behind mixing HCA into the toner originated with the fact that selenium toners contain significant amounts of hypo themselves, and adding HCA speeds washing after toning. For the reasons you stated, I don't use or recommend the mix, but follow selenium toning with HCA and a full wash.

Residual non-image silver (due to incomplete fixing) will cause staining in selenium toner, alkaline or not. In fact, working-strength selenium toner is used as a residual silver test to verify complete fixing.

Selemium toning question???

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