Selective bleaching prints for creative use

silvercloud2323 · Dec 20, 2022

Hi

I like to ask what you know about producing a locally chemical fog in the darkroom? For black and white photography.

Wikipedia:
Fogging in photography is the deterioration in the quality of the image or the negative caused either by extraneous light, other electromagnetic radiation, radioactivity or the effects of a processing chemical. It is seen either as deposition of silver or dyes across all or part of the image unrelated to the original exposure. It can be confused with chemical staining that can be produced from poorly compounded developer, contamination of processing baths or poor washing after processing.

Thx for your answer

{Moderator note: please see a few posts down; the question appears to be about bleaching, not fogging}

oxcanary · Dec 21, 2022

in camera diffusers work well. For prints try really old black and white film and use box speed effectively under exposing it. Perhaps develop in universal or paper developerThen use old paper. Be prepared to experiment with one or two techniques at a time.

koraks · Dec 21, 2022

silvercloud2323 said:
producing a locally chemical fog in the darkroom?

Do you mean you want the fogging agent to be a chemical instead of using light as the cause of fog?
The first thing that comes to mind is direct sulfide toner - which is smelly as hell (literally!) and its vapors will fog any photographic materials it gets to, but you'd only need a tiny bit for it to work. Try something like Moersch MT2 'Carbon' (sulfide/selenium) toner or any of his other toners employing sulfide. I suppose you could make a dilute solution and brush that onto a print before it's fixed.

You'd have to work under safelight or at least under dim light because you'll get problems with the paper printing out otherwise.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

koraks said:
Do you mean you want the fogging agent to be a chemical instead of using light as the cause of fog?
The first thing that comes to mind is direct sulfide toner - which is smelly as hell (literally!) and its vapors will fog any photographic materials it gets to, but you'd only need a tiny bit for it to work. Try something like Moersch MT2 'Carbon' (sulfide/selenium) toner or any of his other toners employing sulfide. I suppose you could make a dilute solution and brush that onto a print before it's fixed.

You'd have to work under safelight or at least under dim light because you'll get problems with the paper printing out otherwise.

Do you mean you want the fogging agent to be a chemical instead of using light as the cause of fog?
"Using light as a cause of fog" ,but how do you do that in a controlled way locally? Fogging with light.

About the sulphide toner.
"I suppose you could make a dilute solution and brush that onto a print before it's fixed."
So after the print is put into the developer and the stop, when the image is there already, before fixing. You can achieve a fog by brushing it onto a print?
Can you tell me something more why sulfide is causing a fog on the print before it's being fixed?

koraks · Dec 21, 2022

silvercloud2323 said:
how do you do that in a controlled way locally? Fogging with light.

A laser pointer comes to mind.

silvercloud2323 said:
So after the print is put into the developer and the stop, when the image is there already, before fixing. You can achieve a fog by brushing it onto a print?

Yes, indeed, that should work just fine. Probably instantaneously as well, or at least pretty rapidly.

silvercloud2323 said:
Can you tell me something more why sulfide is causing a fog on the print before it's being fixed?

I'm no chemist, but the sulfur in the sulfide toner replaces the halide (e.g. bromide or chloride) in the emulsion, forming an insoluble/unfixable silver-suldife salt that will remain in place virtually indefinitely. Apparently the sulfur has a greater affinity for being married to a silver ion than the halides do.

Rudeofus · Dec 21, 2022

I would not recommend chemically fogging your prints before development. Most fogging agents work in trace amounts and completely fog your print: you will get pitch black prints, not the ones you showed here in your screen shots.

If you want highlights to turn grey, you have to make your developer more active. In print developers, which are already quite alkaline, you would have to add a strong silver solvent to raise its activity. Start with 1 g/l KCSN and add more, until you have the desired effect. If you overshot, you can reduce its effect by adding restrainer like KBr.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

Rudeofus said:
Most fogging agents work in trace amounts and completely fog your print: you will get pitch black prints, not the ones you showed here in your screen shots.

Hi Rudeofus,

The photos I showed ,also the one below you can see the whitened areas. Are they not examples of fogging? I know that if you fog with extra light ,the print darkens.
But thought that (fogging),whitening of a spot could be achieved chemically? But how do they do that?
How then are these lighter areas called that you can see in the photos?

koraks · Dec 21, 2022

Can you specify which elements in those examples you mean and want to recreate? I mostly see lighter areas that could be the result of selective bleaching. That would be the exact opposite of fogging.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

koraks said:
Can you specify which elements in those examples you mean and want to recreate? I mostly see lighter areas that could be the result of selective bleaching. That would be the exact opposite of fogging.

Koraks

1st and 3rd image on the bottom side.
2nd image ,over on top of the man

If this is done by selective bleaching, how to do this?

Bleaching is it done with potassium ferricyanide, commonly known as 'ferri' or 'liquid sunshine?

These white areas i was referring to are very natural looking pattern. So I personally don't think is done with a brush.

gone · Dec 21, 2022

All I know about this subject is in plain sight. Those pics look awful. Why anyone would want to purposely make bad images is beyond me (even though I seem to have a natural talent for such things, so there is some satisfaction in doing something well w/o even trying).

rcphoto · Dec 21, 2022

momus said:
All I know about this subject is in plain sight. Those pics look awful. Why anyone would want to purposely make bad images is beyond me (even though I seem to have a natural talent for such things, so there is some satisfaction in doing something well w/o even trying).

How do you define a bad image?

koraks · Dec 21, 2022

Ah, so it's not fogging, but selective bleaching!

silvercloud2323 said:
If this is done by selective bleaching, how to do this?

As you said, ferricyanide, potentially mixed with thiosulfate (which makes it faster and requires no further fixing afterwards).
You can make a weak bath and partly submerge the print into it, dab it with a sponge, brush on and rinse off with running water, etc. Be creative. Part of the artistic merit of techniques like these lies in experimenting with different methods of application. You're the artist

I'll modify the thread title to better reflect your intentions.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

koraks said:
Ah, so it's not fogging, but selective bleaching!

As you said, ferricyanide, potentially mixed with thiosulfate (which makes it faster and requires no further fixing afterwards).
You can make a weak bath and partly submerge the print into it, dab it with a sponge, brush on and rinse off with running water, etc. Be creative. Part of the artistic merit of techniques like these lies in experimenting with different methods of application. You're the artist

I'll modify the thread title to better reflect your intentions.

Thx koraks ,

In "Exploring black and white photography" ,second editions, page 205-206, I read this;

Reducing Density with Farmer’s Reducer

Farmer’s Reducer (table 11.9) consists of separate potassium ferricyanide and sodium thiosulfate stock solutions. These are combined just before use. Once combined, they interact destructively and have a working life of only a few minutes.

Farmer’s Reducer always removes some of the silver it contacts on either negative or print. Potassium ferricyanide in the solution changes metallic image silver in the emulsion into silver ferrocyanide, which is not soluble in plain water but will dissolve in a sodium thiosulfate solution.

I've done some research and came with this:

1) Potassium ferricyanide = Moersch Bleach (Fresh bleach concentrate (ferricyanide and potassium bromide) from Moersch) ?
= Potassium Ferricyanide (from Bellini) ?

2) Sodium thiosulfate = Illford Rapid Fixer ?
= Natriumthiosulfaat (Sodium Thiosulfate) (From Bellini also) ?

Koraks, could you tell me which is correct one?
Thx

koraks · Dec 21, 2022

silvercloud2323 said:
Koraks, could you tell me which is correct one?

Either sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate will work. There will likely be a difference in the speed of the bleach, but with a bleach/reducer, we tend to experiment and dilute as necessary anyway.
So for an effective reducer, it's perfectly fine to mix a weak fixer (any kind you use for film/paper) and add some ferricyanide to it. That's really all there is to it. And yes indeed the Moersch bleach is a fine source of the ferricyanide.

Btw, in a Farmer's reducer, you don't need the bromide. Just ferricyanide and thiosulfate will do.
The bromide is useful/necessary for other purposes, for instance if you're using the bleach in an indirect sepia toner. But that's an entirely different story from selective bleaching.

Hope this helps!

Vaughn · Dec 21, 2022

I used the bromide with the bleach, and used a brush to do selective re-development (prints are about 8x20)...some back and forth...way too much fun.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

Vaughn said:
I used the bromide with the bleach, and used a brush to do selective re-development (prints are about 8x20)...some back and forth...way too much fun.

Thx Vaughn

GregY · Dec 21, 2022

Check out the work of my friend Jay Dusard. He's a master of selective bleaching.....it earned him the nickname "Captain Ferrocyanide"

The Cowboy Portraits of Jay Dusard - Western Horseman

Legendary Arizona photographer Jay Dusard has spent more than 50 years documenting the cowboys, families and landscapes of the American West.

westernhorseman.com

silvercloud2323 · Dec 21, 2022

GregY said:
Check out the work of my friend Jay Dusard. He's a master of selective bleaching.....it earned him the nickname "Captain Ferrocyanide"

The Cowboy Portraits of Jay Dusard - Western Horseman

Legendary Arizona photographer Jay Dusard has spent more than 50 years documenting the cowboys, families and landscapes of the American West.

westernhorseman.com

Thanks

GregY · Dec 21, 2022

BTW.....there are very detailed instructions on selective bleaching, in Bruce Barnbaum's book "The Art of Photography." I've never had great results with complete immersion of the print,.....compared to selectively bleaching parts of a print.

silvercloud2323 · Dec 24, 2022

GregY said:
BTW.....there are very detailed instructions on selective bleaching, in Bruce Barnbaum's book "The Art of Photography." I've never had great results with complete immersion of the print,.....compared to selectively bleaching parts of a print.

Hello GregY
Thanks for sharing
Could you tell me where i can find it in the book of Barnbaum"The Art of Photography"
I have the book too, but don't see anything about selective bleaching.

MattKing · Dec 24, 2022

This print is from a Brownie Hawkeye - selectively bleached and toned:

GregY · Dec 24, 2022

silvercloud2323 said:
Hello GregY
Thanks for sharing
Could you tell me where i can find it in the book of Barnbaum"The Art of Photography"
I have the book too, but don't see anything about selective bleaching.

P 107. Potassium ferricyanide reducing

silvercloud2323 · Dec 24, 2022

GregY said:
P 107. Potassium ferricyanide reducing

Found it. I had another edition. But now i have he right edition.

Selective bleaching prints for creative use

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