Searching for high temp, rapid (b&w) paper developer formula

Hi All . . .

Would any of you happen to know of any paper developer formulas which would allow me to fully develop black & white RC paper at around 100°F in about 10 seconds?

Even if what you have isn't exactly to those parameters but close, I'd really appreciate a shout back!

Thanks,

Chris

Not sure how fast - but Ilford multigrade in 1+9 concentration was pretty fast in the summer for RC (with temperature that you are mentioning). Now I am using PQ universal, so cannot test it.

Kodak Polymax RT Developer & Replenisher ( designed for machine processing ) will develop RC paper in 15 seconds at 35 degrees C ( mixed 1+4 ).

Add to that Ilford Rapid Fixer ( again at 35 degrees, mixed 1+4 ) will fix that print in 15 seconds.

John S

darkosaric said:

Not sure how fast - but Ilford multigrade in 1+9 concentration was pretty fast in the summer for RC (with temperature that you are mentioning). Now I am using PQ universal, so cannot test it.

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Danke Darko, but I've seen in certain of Ilford's technical sheet that they warn against using Multigrade (and PQ) developer
at high temperatures. Maybe you mean a high room temperature?

I have used Multigrade in high room temperature, but that temperature was well above 30ºC (86F). No problems like increased grain or similar that I have noticed.

John Salim said:

Kodak Polymax RT Developer & Replenisher ( designed for machine processing ) will develop RC paper in 15 seconds at 35 degrees C ( mixed 1+4 ).

Add to that Ilford Rapid Fixer ( again at 35 degrees, mixed 1+4 ) will fix that print in 15 seconds.

John S

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Thanks kindly John, I'll look into it.

darkosaric said:

I have used Multigrade in high room temperature, but that temperature was well above 30ºC (86F). No problems like increased grain or similar that I have noticed.

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OK, Darko. In fact i have some Ilford MG in my darkroom, so I'll give it a test. Thanks!

How are you intending to get good even coverage and development in 10 seconds? Sounds like a recipe for blotchy prints. BTW why the rush???

Also depends from the paper, the fastest paper that I have seen in developing is Ilford multigrade rc express - there 10 seconds is a realistic expected time in warm developer.

Use Dektol full strength and add a bit of sodium carbonate. You will see that print 'take off'. - David Lyga

Gerald C Koch said:

How are you intending to get good even coverage and development in 10 seconds? Sounds like a recipe for blotchy prints. BTW why the rush???

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It's for a machine, Gerald.

David Lyga said:

Use Dektol full strength and add a bit of sodium carbonate. You will see that print 'take off'. - David Lyga

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Thanks, David.... will give it a try.

I found that at higher temperatures (nowhere near 100degF) I got some staining from aerial oxidation when I lifted prints out of the developer. Agfa's pdf files for paper development had times for 25degC and 30degC (which is 86degF) which were around 40sec or 50sec. I was using Neutol_WA. The problem went away at lower temperatures.

john_s said:

I found that at higher temperatures (nowhere near 100degF) I got some staining from aerial oxidation when I lifted prints out of the developer. Agfa's pdf files for paper development had times for 25degC and 30degC (which is 86degF) which were around 40sec or 50sec. I was using Neutol_WA. The problem went away at lower temperatures.

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Thanks, but that's why I'm looking for a paper developer which is specially formulated for high temperatures. They exist. I'm just waiting for someone who might know —and happens to read this— to chime in!

I've run Bromophen 1+3 @100 F for 30 sec it works. I think if you look at how an Ilford 2150 processor works it is hot and fast. I would try any normal developer Dektol etc. Heat up a pint to 105 F put your paper in a dry tray pour it in and start the timer. You want it hot and concentrated enough that you hit full development in your 10 to 30 second window so timing isn't critical. Color RA4 printing if you have the temperature at 95 F recommended development time is 45 seconds but if you leave it in the developer for 2 minutes it won't change the outcome because it's not going any farther after 45 seconds at 95 F.
Best Regards Mike

mshchem said:

I've run Bromophen 1+3 @100 F for 30 sec it works. I think if you look at how an Ilford 2150 processor works it is hot and fast. I would try any normal developer Dektol etc. Heat up a pint to 105 F put your paper in a dry tray pour it in and start the timer. You want it hot and concentrated enough that you hit full development in your 10 to 30 second window so timing isn't critical. Color RA4 printing if you have the temperature at 95 F recommended development time is 45 seconds but if you leave it in the developer for 2 minutes it won't change the outcome because it's not going any farther after 45 seconds at 95 F.
Best Regards Mike

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Thanks Mike. Truth told, the reason for my post is that I own an Ilford 2150RC —but I've kept it in storage until now, and I need to start it up to attack a huge backlog of negatives that I need to contact print (hint as to the quantity: I already had this backlog way before Vivian Maier's stuff was discovered, so I'm not imitating her bad habits . . I have my own!). Problem is, I'm basically a hobbyist and don't even sell my work, and the current price of a set of chemicals (the developer and fixer are sold together) here in Europe is 90 euros (that's about $102 @ current U.S. dollar equivalent) The chemistry has a capacity of 1000 8x10s, or you dump it after two weeks, whichever comes first. This price is just too stiff for me.

I'm not sure that Bromophen would work because Ilford's chemistry (called 2150TL) is formulated especially for the parameters of this machine (ie: giving the full 1000 8x10s before exhaustion). Further complicating things by using other chemistry is that the machine is designed to accept 3 liters of concentrate, and then it automatically dilutes it to 14 liters of working solution. That means I can't simply fill it 14L of prepared chemistry. I'd have to "back figure" the amount of developer (mix it as a concentrate) so that it came up to the correct dilution in the machine... and stir it once it's in the machine's tank. It's possible, I guess.

Nonetheless, what I'd really prefer to do is come up with is a "mix it yourself" version of their concentrate. I know that Ilford will hate me for this —and it fact, I feel guilty about trying to circumvent one of their products because they are really a company I generally support and hold in high esteem (I use HP5+ almost daily, and many other of their products —since the 1970s!—, and I refer their products often) . . . but I simply can't afford this stuff for the moment, damn it!

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Chris

Chris,
you should have told us that your are looking for chemistry for the Ilfolab 2150RC, that would have made things much easier from the beginning! Rollei/Macodirect sells a developer/fixer kit of 2x4 liters called "Rollei Speed 2000 TL" which I think is intended as equivalent/direct replacement for the Ilford chemistry for the 2150RC. The price is 50 EUR, and my guess is, it's not gonna get any cheaper than that. Of course you could start experimenting with other/cheaper developers and fixers or even mix your own, which might work or not work, but IMO you would be better off by spending the money on the Rollei chemistry (knowing it WILL work) and spending your precious time to get your contact sheets finally printed! BTW, the processing temperature of the 2150RC according to the manual is 35C, not 40C.
John

mnemosyne said:

Chris,
you should have told us that your are looking for chemistry for the Ilfolab 2150RC, that would have made things much easier from the beginning! Rollei/Macodirect sells a developer/fixer kit of 2x4 liters called "Rollei Speed 2000 TL" which I think is intended as equivalent/direct replacement for the Ilford chemistry for the 2150RC. The price is 50 EUR, and my guess is, it's not gonna get any cheaper than that. Of course you could start experimenting with other/cheaper developers and fixers or even mix your own, which might work or not work, but IMO you would be better off by spending the money on the Rollei chemistry (knowing it WILL work) and spending your precious time to get your contact sheets finally printed! BTW, the processing temperature of the 2150RC according to the manual is 35C, not 40C.
John

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Hi John,

First —about my stealthiness— sorry, but I didn't want to put it right out there that I was looking for a replacement of a chemical from a company which, as I said, I generally try to support .. I know a few of the folks at Ilford and I don't want to make enemies or look [too] hypocritical! However, Mike's reference to the very machine blew my cover! (and thanks, but I know about the correct temperature already, thats why I said "around" 100°F).

Thanks, also, for the recommendation to use Rollei Speed 2000TL, but it's the very first stuff I tried! Maybe I'm stupid, but the results were disastrous due to my complete confusion due to the apparently different dilution requirements between Ilford's and Rollei's chemicals (in fact, Ilford doesn't even give "dilution instructions" ...you just dump in all into the machine).

The Ilford machine is designed so that you pour in 3 liters of [specially formulated Ilford] chemistry and then the machine dilutes it to 14 liters of working solution, whereas the Rollei chemistry is sold in 4 liter bottles. I and the retired person who sold me the machine and was "training" me (she'd never heard of "Rollei" chemistry before and joked that "their camera business must have really fallen off!") stood there scratching our heads.

Finally, we made the fatal error of deciding to dilute the Rollei stuff before pouring in the 3 liters, and, of course, the contrast of the resulting prints were lower than my socks on a hot Sunday. That was last year. Presently, I understand that the dilution rates between the Ilford and Rollei chemicals are similar, but because of the packaging difference, you waste money and probably chemicals on the Rollei brand. Several months ago, I contacted Maco about this, essentially saying, "What the heck am I supposed to do with an extra liter of chemicals each time I fill the machine? Sure, I could dilute it down for tray processing, but that is ridiculous... I bought the stuff for a machine!" (In fact, I have the impression that this developer and fixer is meant for any roller transport machine other than the Ilford 2150RC). For this reason I've been reluctant to re-purchase the product. I spoke with Maco about this several months ago, but I haven't heard back from them. If you know more than they do (or can at least respond quicker!), I'm all ears, dear colleague!

SCOOP! I'm editing this post because I've just called Sebastian Junghans, a very helpful customer service rep at Maco. He says that (because of my constant bitching <my words, but surely his thoughts!), the manufacture will offer Rollei 2000TL chemistry in 3 liter bottles as of September/October. ... therefore, a big thank you to John, who dug up the ball and help get it rolling again. Now, to see if they'll hold their per/liter price at the same point (reading, Maco?!)

I agree (lack of) product documentation is one of the weak points of the Rollei/Maco offerings. I use a lot of their stuff, but I have agonized over missing or even contradictive instructions more than once. I guess you get what you pay for. Back to topic: Me thinks the full 4 liters are intended to be diluted to the 14 liters the machine requires. So, you dump in all the four liters, not just three. This gets clear from the documentation of the Tetenal Eukospeed 2000 chemistry, which is the Tetenal version of the Ilfolab 2150RC chemistry and also comes in four liter kits, which of course might be purely coincidental. I have no certain knowledge whether Tetenal is the maker of the Rollei kit, but you can draw your own conclusions.

I would bet you that if you called up Ilford and told them you were going to buy a boatload of Ilford RC paper they would give you a heck of a deal on the chemistry for the 2150. Seriously, Bromophen is to expensive. I would make your own, Take some Dektol stock add some sodium carbonate or a spoon full of NaOH (Yee Haa) and try it first in a tray. Keep adding accelerator (and Metol) until you get an image that comes up in 10 seconds. I don't think Ilford would be insulted by just asking if something else would work. I doubt 2150 chemistry is in their long term strategic plan. Eventually they will discontinue the stuff and publish the formula. They probably use most of what they make in their own photo labs.

I could have gotten three of these beasts for the hauling, they got scrapped. I did save one of the drier heads for parts for my Ilford dryer.
Best of Luck, Mike

Chris, I got your message.

I have an Ilford formula for an MQ developer for machine processing, I can easily convert it to a PQ version. What temperature/development times are you looking to use with the processor.

Don't go adding hydroxide to developers as that will considerably shorten the keeping properties which is important in machine processing.

Ian

I'd suggest ignoring your machine for the moment except, possibly, for the dryer..

You are actually seeking a speedy and efficient way to process a large amount of standardised contact-prints on RC paper, at minimum cost - this is the task, is it not?

Contact-prints are a standard exposure time, giving almost-but-not-quite maximum black through the filmbase (which may vary per film, of course). The developing can best be done by exposing the contact-sheets appropriately, keeping them in a lightproof box until you have a dozen or more, then developing them simultaneously, 'shuffling' them wearing gloves -- similar to the traditional way of developing sheet film. You will need a decent sized tray and use a little more depth of developer than for single sheets. The time to be saved is huge. Stopping and fixing work in the same way, though be sure to drop the paper in to the stop to avoid glove (and hence developer) contamination.

Keep a careful eye on the amount of paper you are putting through the chemicals as you may need to replace a tray at some point.

Speedy washing for RC needs water, agitation and only a few minutes so can be done in a washing-up bowl, or similar deep 'tray', with a hose on the tap. Drying would be usefully done with the removable dryer-module of your 2150 machine. If that proves impractical, then use a couple of dish draining-racks (make sure they are clean of course) to hold the prints vertically with one corner down. In either case, washing and drying can be done by an unskilled assistant in daylight, thereby letting you spend that time printing up the next batch of contacts in the dark.

Batching up the processing tasks can save you a lot of time and is the efficient, pre-machine way of approaching the problem you have.

Hello Martin,
I really, honesty, appreciate your suggestion to batch print and batch process my contact prints (and I agree that standardizing exposures for max black is the best method. It's the way I've always done it, since the 1970s). However —first— I've already got (and have installed) this machine, and I procured it especially for this project. As well, using this machine means no "need to replace a tray at some point". Don't forget, I've got over 1000 prints to make, and luckily this processor handles that many (1000) on one load of chemicals. Secondly, I'm not so sure that batch printing would be faster. Printing, then feeding the print into the machine immediately afterwards, permits you to begin on the next print while the previous one is traveling through the machine, and comes out processed and dried in about I minute. Lastly, —in my experience— manual washing takes as much —or more— time as the chemical processing phase of developing photos, and I certainly couldn't afford to hire an assistant, unskilled or not, to do it for me (I spent that money on the machine ... which is my mechanical assistant!). But again, dank u wel for the suggestion!

I re-read your posts and at first missed that you already had the machine set up. I was assuming that it was in a storage room somewhere, full of condensation and dead spiders. However, if you can't make it work then it is as good as a very large doorstop. A thousand contacts would take somewhere around three weeks to print manually, with weekends off. I can make you a quote for the work, using your facilities, if you like...

I last used a 2150 three decades ago, and indeed they are a great way of increasing throughput. The machine, or the version in the lab where I worked, pumped dev and fix concentrate from the containers beside the unit as automatic replenishment after the mixing - the large cubi-tainers only need replacing when empty, or nearly so, and there is minimal complication about the whole unit. I noticed the instructions and user-guides were still on the Harman website last year.

Christopher Nisperos said:

Hello Martin,
I really, honesty, appreciate your suggestion to batch print and batch process my contact prints (and I agree that standardizing exposures for max black is the best method. It's the way I've always done it, since the 1970s). However —first— I've already got (and have installed) this machine, and I procured it especially for this project. As well, using this machine means no "need to replace a tray at some point". Don't forget, I've got over 1000 prints to make, and luckily this processor handles that many (1000) on one load of chemicals. Secondly, I'm not so sure that batch printing would be faster. Printing, then feeding the print into the machine immediately afterwards, permits you to begin on the next print while the previous one is traveling through the machine, and comes out processed and dried in about I minute. Lastly, —in my experience— manual washing takes as much —or more— time as the chemical processing phase of developing photos, and I certainly couldn't afford to hire an assistant, unskilled or not, to do it for me (I spent that money on the machine ... which is my mechanical assistant!). But again, dank u wel for the suggestion!

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Chris,
I use an Ilfolab 2150RC ( ....heavily modified to auto replenish ), and can produce contact sheets very quickly when using two contact frames in tandem......the machine will out pace you !
Kodak Polymax RT developer and Ilford Rapid Fixer will sort you out

John S