Seagull..or not?

Wayne · Apr 6, 2006

I have long used Oriental Seagull graded paper for certain types of B&W printing. I have never had any complaints about it whatsoever. But I am now moving towards VC paper, and I'm running out of my old Seagull stock. Its not the real old Seagull, but its probably 6-8 years old. Is there any reason I should not stick with Seagull or switch to their VC paper? I realize their emulsions have changed at least twice since my present stock was made only a few years ago. Will I find the new VC paper quite similar or noticeably different from the grades stock I'm used to? if its very different I see no reason to stick with them. The only other paper I'm really considering is Kentmere Fineprint VC, but sometimes I need a harder contrast than the 3-3.5 that I hear is its limit. That concerns me. Ill be perfectly content to stick with Seagull if it still has similar qualities.

Wayne

Bob F. · Apr 6, 2006

UK supplier Silverprint (www.silverprint.co.uk) has this to say:

End of an era - Oriental Seagull was the paper that Silverprint started off with, and the first shipment was brought into the UK in 1984. Although it got off to a great start, and quickly became a cult material here, in later years it had a troubled existence, including abysmal performance by 2 other UK importers, and Oriental themselves going into receivership some years ago.
Although the factory was re-established, production ceased some time ago, and the paper now sold under the Oriental brand is manufactured elsewhere.
The new paper offers no advantages over other generally available brands, and in particular does not lith process. It is also considerably more expensive than other brands so we are no longer bringing it into the UK.

Never used it myself...

On the subject of Fineprint VC: check out the chart I posted in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) thread where I have compared Fineprint VC with MGIV and you will see that the Grade 5 is as good as the Ilford paper - in fact, I could convince myself that the slope of the FP curve is slightly steeper...

Cheers, Bob.

ineffablething · Apr 6, 2006

I don't know that the quote rings quite true with me. I have done alot of work with Seagull papers over the years, including printing 1,500 separate negatives for William Vollmann's "Rising Up Rising Down" 2 years ago and I think the VC paper does offer some distinct advantages. It is on a very heavy, very white base and it tones remarkably well. The nearest competitor to it, I would say, is the Forte VC.The Bergger neutral paper is very nice, but is not on as heavy a base and is much harder to get a hold of in great quantities (not to mention that it is available in 25 sheet packs ONLY). The Ilford VC papers are on a thinner base and are quite difficult to manipulate with developers/toners in comparison. On a final note, the modern Seagull VC compares very favorably to older Seagull papers I have used,IMHO.

William

Bob F. said:
UK supplier Silverprint (www.silverprint.co.uk) has this to say:

Never used it myself...

On the subject of Fineprint VC: check out the chart I posted in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) thread where I have compared Fineprint VC with MGIV and you will see that the Grade 5 is as good as the Ilford paper - in fact, I could convince myself that the slope of the FP curve is slightly steeper...

Cheers, Bob.

Neal · Apr 7, 2006

Dear Wayne,

Why abandon one of your favorite brands without at least trying their VC paper? The price is competitive with the other major brands.

Neal Wydra

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 7, 2006

I bought a box of Fineprint VC months ago and still haven't finished it up, much because I feel that when I need a really hard grade such as 4 or 4.5 I don't really see a change from 3.5. This is all very unscientific, but after I switched to ADOX VC I have never had problems like that again. I use other papers too on occasion, Kentmere graded paper for instance, but Adox VC really is awesome stuff.
However, if you like Seagull, why switch?

- Thom

Monophoto · Apr 7, 2006

Wayne -

If it ain't broke - - -

Seriously, if you are happy with the result you are getting with graded Seagull, then you owe it to youself to try their VC material. What others use is really not important - what matters is what you like to see in your work, and only you can make that judgement.

I have started using Kentmere Fineprint VC after using Arista VC (repackaged Ilford MG) for many years. I like the slightly cooler tonality and the way it responds to selenium toner, but the contrast response is quite different from what I was accustomed to. Fineprint is clearly a snappier paper. That's not to say that its "better" than the Arista/Ilford - it's just different.

I also like Ilford WT - and I will probably continue to use that even through I have to pay more to get it.

But only you can determine what is right for you.

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 7, 2006

The "New Oriental" which is the replacement for Oriental Seagull, in my opinion, is not nearly as good. Now, this is based on tests of paper they first produced when they came out, and so their qc may have improved considerably since then. I found the New Oriental at the time I tested it to be VERY flat - I couldn't get a good grade 2 out of it. In my experience of recent testing, the Kentmere Fineprint VC is a very nice paper, and actually a bit contrastier than others in its category. Perhaps it tops out at grade 3.5, but I found that at the Ilford recommended filter settings for grade 2, it prints closer to 2.5 . This was true in all paper developers tested - Ilford Warmtone and Cooltone and Ansco 130. The Kentmere VC paper is a very fast paper- it exposes about 1 1/2-2 stops faster than my Bergger VCCB, which is my reference paper.

Another nice paper to try if you can get it easily is the Foma VC paper. Faster than the Bergger, but not quite as fast as the Kentmere.

Donald Miller · Apr 7, 2006

I haven't purchased their current production of the VC material but I have printed on it for four or five years. It is a very good paper, in my opinion.

Not surprising I guess, but I found the Kentmere VC to be weak in dmax. But that is probably just due to different preferences in people.

Insofar as a graded material, I like the JandC Nuance Exposition (Adox) a lot. It is my favorite graded paper today.

Wayne · Apr 7, 2006

The question of "why switch" only came up because the emulsion has changed at least twice since I bought my current stock. Freestyles latest catalog says it has changed yet again-I'm not sure if thats the 2nd or 3rd time in the last several years. So I dont even know if the graded paper would still be to my liking, let alone the VC. Like I said I would prefer to stick with it if its still essentially like it was 6-8 years ago (or better). I suppose I can always buy 25 sheets and find out, but I'm too short on supplies money this year and would much rather buy in 100's.

Wayne

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 7, 2006

Wayne,

if you want I can send you some of the Kentmere VC. PM me if interested. It's only size 5x7, but it would give you an indication.

- Thom

vet173 · Apr 7, 2006

It's not going to be the same. It was my standard paper. As with a lot of stuff that we used to be able to get, you can get close but no cigar. You will join the rest of us and miss it.

kjsphoto · Apr 7, 2006

I am another long time Oriental user and the new paper is no where as good as the old stuff. And toning ? Forget it not very good at all.

I was jazed about the Kentmere but I have heard a lot of complaints about the Fiberbase VC that it is very brittle once dry, emulsion craks eaisly and that paper is more like a sheet of cardboard than paper.

So now I am jsut trying to find that single VC paper I can call my new baby.

Oh well life goes on.

Wayne · Apr 7, 2006

Sigh...Doesnt look good no matter which way I turn. Have any of you tried the latest, newest version of Seagull? Maybe they undid some of the previous harm and it got better again?? hehe, nervous laugh...

Wayne

Bob F. · Apr 7, 2006

Fineprint is the same paper that was sold under the Luminos (or whatever the spelling was) brand name in the US for many years. I use it and have no real complaints. A little more prone to damage than MGIV-FB for example, but not a problem in normal processing in trays or Nova. Give it a try & make up your own mind: a pack of 8x10 is cheap enough...

Cheers, Bob.

PeterB · Apr 8, 2006

Wayne said:
Is there any reason I should not stick with Seagull or switch to their VC paper?

Hi Wayne,
I've been told by other users of thir paper that Cybergraphics (the seagull manufacturer) has lifted their game since my last relatively recent bad experience with some of their paper. Nevertheless, I think its important that you get the bigger picture.

see (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

regards
Peter

Wayne · Apr 8, 2006

Maybe I'll just go to Forte Polygrade-I already use their warmtone paper and love it, so maybe it will be the ticket for me...reading that some people think New Seagull looks like MGIV really frightens me!

Wayne

firecracker · Apr 16, 2006

I've just printed on the new Oriental VC FB glossy paper. I like the paper. To my eye, it's somewhat comparable with Ilford MG FB glossy paper. The tonal quality seems manageable, however the surface quality (coating) remains noticeably different: Ilford is pretty smooth, and Oriental is a bit rough.

For some of the images I've been printing lately, the new Oriental paper looks better than the good old Ilford.

firecracker · Apr 19, 2006

I've tested a few, and so far the new Oriental paper works for my landscape pictures, but not for portraits. Too white.

John Simmons · Apr 19, 2006

Another option if you want cold tones is....believe it or not....Ilford Multigrade Fiber Warmtone in the new Ilford Harmon Coldtone Developer. Very blue black "forte like" tones with a much better, richer glossy surface, deepest black, tones incredibly well, and responds to localized bleaching. Best of all it is consistent from batch to batch.....which is a quality that Forte does not even come close to. I have abandoned the polygrade v long ago because of inconsistancies.

firecracker · Apr 22, 2006

I tested the Oriental paper with a Fujinon lens, which is supposedly softer than a Nikkor lens and developed the paper in Dektol 1:3 for 2minutes. The result I got was satisfying. It produced good tonality and contrast.

Ray Heath · Apr 22, 2006

hey guys
why so precious about materials
you will get an image on any paper, be flexible and creative

MMfoto · Apr 22, 2006

Ray Heath said:
hey guys
why so precious about materials
you will get an image on any paper, be flexible and creative

Tell that to Irving Penn.

Ray Heath · Apr 22, 2006

MMfoto said:
Tell that to Irving Penn.

what?
that doesn't answer my question

firecracker · Apr 23, 2006

Ray Heath said:
what?
that doesn't answer my question

I'm being precise on the material I choose, and I'll be inevitably precious when I get done printing.

That's creavitity or a creative process to me.

Wayne · Apr 23, 2006

I dont understand the question...

Seagull..or not?

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