scratches, dust, dyes, and coloring?!?!

eddie gunks · Aug 31, 2007

hello all,
i am in need of info regarding scratches and dust. what do you all use for fixing this on both the negs and the prints? i know i need to take better care of the negs, but once i have a scratch and some dust how can i best take care of it? i have some prints that i really need to spot.

i am interested in hand coloring some prints for fun. what do you all use for this? thanks.

eddie

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 31, 2007

For spotting, I recommend SpotPens. They're a set of ten pens, from almost paper-white to jet black. They come in two sets- cooltone and warmtone. You can spot with them down to about a #00 size brush. They work extremely well. The best solution is to remove your dust beforehand. Compressed air in a can is your friend, as are anti-static brushes. I like the Jobo brushes better than the Staticmasters, not only because they don't have polonium in them, but because they also don't expire. For a scratch, Edwal makes this stuff called No-Scratch - it's a liquid that smells like paint thinner - you brush it on over the scratch and it fills in the scratch so it is much less visible, if not completely removed.

palewin · Aug 31, 2007

Eddie: the ancestor of the SpotPen was (were?) SpotTone dyes; they come in several hues (colder blue, warmer green, and neutral) so that you can blend the SpotTone to match your toned print, then you dilute down with water so that you can build up to the desired darkness by layering. Use fine-point brushes - this is still the way I do it. It works well for spotting out the light spots on a print, due to dust on the negative. But I remember on the LF forum you showed your negs with some scratches in them, which because they will be transparent on the neg, print dark on the print. This is a more difficult problem. One solution is the "filler" mentioned in the earlier post (I wasn't aware something like that existed); the earlier approach was to use something like India Ink on the negative over the scratch, which would then print light on the negative, and you could spot it in. The other approach is to bleach out the dark scratch on the print (again SpotTone makes a bleach for this), then you (once again) are using SpotTone to darken the now lighter area. Bleaching had to be done before mounting, because you need to rewash the print after bleaching the scratches. Bottom line is that spotting (small) light areas isn't too bad, dealing with dark scratches on a print is a big deal. Personally, for bad scratches on a negative, I'd bite the bullet and try photoshop and digital printing. P.S. See you in Rosendale on the 15th!

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 31, 2007

In addition to the NoScratch (which works great for fine scratches, but is useless for something that is large enough to cause a hole in the emulsion), Kodak USED to make a product called Crocein Red. It was a dye for retouching negatives. They don't make it anymore - there was another thread either here or on LF Info (I forget which) about a substitute for it. You may be able to find something that works like it at an art supply store.

winger · Aug 31, 2007

For handcoloring, I print on matte finish paper (even RC works) and color with Marshall's Photo Oils. The oils are pretty easy to use, just remember that a little bit goes a really long way. I found a small starter kit at Michaels arts and crafts that had about 6 tubes of color and some cotton tips, etc.. I think they even make ones that come with a sample photo to color.
There's at least one example in my gallery and a couple at my way basic first attempt at a website (that is barely ready to be public, but you can check the handcolored ones) - Dead Link Removed lol, just ignore the fact that I put some of the pages there to see how to do it and I need to reselect which photos are on there.

eddie gunks · Aug 31, 2007

thanks everyone.

peter. are the spot tone dyes little bottles with a dropper like cap? i have seen them but did not know if i could get them to work. see you on the 15th.

i should just be more careful with my soft negs!

eddie

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Roger Hicks · Sep 1, 2007

Dear Eddie,

Frances always uses SpotPens for spotting, and I second the recommendation above. Much quicker and easier than dyes or pigments (and we have both, and used to use them).

She's also a pretty good hand colourist, and the truth is you can use ANYTHING, even food dyes, though unless you use materials specifically formulated for photographic prints, you can't guarantee permanence.

Marshall's Oils are the most consistently available but you may still be able to find SpotPen hand colouring pens. Frances has demonstrated both at trade shows, including photokina. There's some of her work at http://www.rogerandfrances.com/sgallery/g hc 0.html. Some is Marshall's; some is SpotPens; some is dye-based; some are mixed. Her advice is to get anything that catches your fancy, and play with it. Matte FB takes most things, best, but matte RC takes plenty of media too. You can even hand-colour glossy with dyes and SpotPens.

Cheers,

Roger

eddie gunks · Sep 1, 2007

thanks for the link roger. beautiful stuff!

i will get out and get some today. i will keep you posted.

eddie

max_ebb · Sep 6, 2007

For spotting prints, I've been using the same set of Marshall's touch up dyes since the 80's (and the bottles are still almost full). With proper technique, using a small brush for touch up is very fast and easy. The trick is not to use the dyes wet. Just put a couple drops of each color on a piece of glass or acrylic, and let it dry. Then use a damp piece of cloth to wet the brush, and to reduce the amount of dye in the brush. The idea is to spot lightly, and build up darkness gradually.

eddie gunks · Sep 7, 2007

max_ebb said:
For spotting prints, I've been using the same set of Marshall's touch up dyes since the 80's (and the bottles are still almost full). With proper technique, using a small brush for touch up is very fast and easy. The trick is not to use the dyes wet. Just put a couple drops of each color on a piece of glass or acrylic, and let it dry. Then use a damp piece of cloth to wet the brush, and to reduce the amount of dye in the brush. The idea is to spot lightly, and build up darkness gradually.

thanks max. this is helpful info.

i got some spotpens. i am practicing with them. it is not the magic cure all i was hoping for! LOL! i will keep practicing. i seem to have a never ending supply of scratches and dust.

eddie

Roger Hicks · Sep 7, 2007

eddie gunks said:
i got some spotpens. i am practicing with them. it is not the magic cure all i was hoping for! LOL!

They do take practice -- but once you have the experience, they are quickest and easiest of all.

max_ebb · Sep 9, 2007

Is there any way to control how much dye a spot pen puts down when you touch it to the print? I've never used the pens, but it seems to me it would be difficult to touch up a dust spot on a really light part of the print without getting it too dark. With a brush, it's really simple to dab some of the dye onto a damp piece of cloth for spotting really light parts of a print.

For me, spotting with a brush (using proper technique) didn't require hardly any practice at all to get it down pat. I don't see how pens could possibly give the level of control that you get with a brush, so I don't see how pens could possibly be the quickest and easiest.

I believe that using a brush with proper technique is the quickest and easiest way to spot prints, but that's just my opinion.

Roger Hicks · Sep 9, 2007

max_ebb said:
Is there any way to control how much dye a spot pen puts down when you touch it to the print? I've never used the pens, but it seems to me it would be difficult to touch up a dust spot on a really light part of the print without getting it too dark. With a brush, it's really simple to dab some of the dye onto a damp piece of cloth for spotting really light parts of a print.

For me, spotting with a brush (using proper technique) didn't require hardly any practice at all to get it down pat. I don't see how pens could possibly give the level of control that you get with a brush, so I don't see how pens could possibly be the quickest and easiest.

I believe that using a brush with proper technique is the quickest and easiest way to spot prints, but that's just my opinion.

I think the clue to your suspicion lies in your second sentence: SpotPens come in sets, from light to dark.

Like you, I find brushes easier. But Frances, who does a LOT more spotting than I and is MUCH better at it (which is why she does mine as well as hers...) swears by SpotPens. That's after learning on dyes, and trying pigments as well.

dslater · Sep 9, 2007

TheFlyingCamera said:
For spotting, I recommend SpotPens. They're a set of ten pens, from almost paper-white to jet black. They come in two sets- cooltone and warmtone. You can spot with them down to about a #00 size brush. They work extremely well. The best solution is to remove your dust beforehand. Compressed air in a can is your friend, as are anti-static brushes. I like the Jobo brushes better than the Staticmasters, not only because they don't have polonium in them, but because they also don't expire. For a scratch, Edwal makes this stuff called No-Scratch - it's a liquid that smells like paint thinner - you brush it on over the scratch and it fills in the scratch so it is much less visible, if not completely removed.

Hmm - are these easier to use that spotTone with a #00 brush? That's what I have and I have found spotting to be very difficult. Often it seems to be very difficult to get the dye to stick to the emulsion, then when I finally do get it to stick, I end up with to much and have a nice dark ring around the white spot - and a ruined print to boot.

I agree the best thing to do is to eliminate all the dust in the first place - I have never been successful at this - there always seems to be a few particles I didn't see or some fall on the neg when it's in the enlarger. I use a staticmaster and a squeeze bulb for blowing off the negative. I swore off compressed air cans after I had one spray a bunch of propellant onto the front element of my lens.

max_ebb · Sep 9, 2007

dslater said:
Often it seems to be very difficult to get the dye to stick to the emulsion, then when I finally do get it to stick, I end up with to much and have a nice dark ring around the white spot - and a ruined print to boot.

Sounds to me like an issue with technique. Are you using the dyes straight out of the bottles, or are you letting them dry on a piece of glass or acrylic first? What you described sounds like what happens when you try to use the dyes straight out of the bottles. Also, if you get spotting dyes too dark, you can generally wipe it off with a wet rag if you do it right away (and then re-wash the entire print to get rid of the wipe mark).

Roger Hicks said:
I think the clue to your suspicion lies in your second sentence: SpotPens come in sets, from light to dark.

I realize they come in light and dark, but how light is light, and what if you need something in between shades, or what if the lightest shade isn't light enough? With a brush, you have have an infinite number of shades. To me, that means I have more control, and more control makes the job easier.

In the end, it all comes down to personal preference, and what one is more comfortable using.

dslater · Sep 9, 2007

max_ebb said:
Sounds to me like an issue with technique. Are you using the dyes straight out of the bottles, or are you letting them dry on a piece of glass or acrylic first? What you described sounds like what happens when you try to use the dyes straight out of the bottles. Also, if you get spotting dyes too dark, you can generally wipe it off with a wet rag if you do it right away (and then re-wash the entire print to get rid of the wipe mark).

The technique I was taught was to take a tiny drop of dye and mix it with some water until it was at the correct color. Then dip my fine spotter into the mix and wipe the brush on a scrap piece of paper until it was nearly dry. Then apply with by stippling.

max_ebb · Sep 9, 2007

dslater said:
The technique I was taught was to take a tiny drop of dye and mix it with some water until it was at the correct color. Then dip my fine spotter into the mix and wipe the brush on a scrap piece of paper until it was nearly dry. Then apply with by stippling.

Yep, that's basically the same way I tried to do it when I first got a set of spotting dyes, and I didn't have much luck with that method (very similar to what you described). Then I was taught by an old master to put drops of the dyes on a piece of glass and let them dry (and label each color because they look different after they dry). After I did that, the difference was like day and night. All of a sudden spotting was a snap, instead of something I dreaded having to do.

dslater · Sep 9, 2007

max_ebb said:
Yep, that's basically the same way I tried to do it when I first got a set of spotting dyes, and I didn't have much luck with that method (very similar to what you described). Then I was taught by an old master to put drops of the dyes on a piece of glass and let them dry (and label each color because they look different after they dry). After I did that, the difference was like day and night. All of a sudden spotting was a snap, instead of something I dreaded having to do.

Cool - so how do you use the dried dyes? Do you moisten the brush at all? How do you control the density?

Thanks,

Dan

eddie gunks · Sep 9, 2007

great! thanks everyone. this thread is getting better and better. keep em coming.

so after i let the dyes dry a bit then i use a damp brush? am i getting it? i hope so cause i just printed 25 8x10 and i need to spot a few

eddie

max_ebb · Sep 9, 2007

dslater said:
Cool - so how do you use the dried dyes? Do you moisten the brush at all? How do you control the density?

Thanks,

Dan

Yes, I allow the dyes to dry completely on the glass, and I use a small piece of wet/damp cloth for the brush. I dampen the brush on the cloth, then daub the dye to pick up some color, then wipe some of the dye out of the brush on the wet cloth if I'm spotting a light background. You can practice on a light part of a scrap photo to get a feel of how much dye you're picking up on the brush, and how light you can get it by wiping it on the damp cloth.

I store my 'palette' (piece of glass with dried dye on it) with a piece of paper over it to keep dust off. Even when I was printing commercially and spotting every day it was months before I'd need to add any more dye to the glass (starting with just a couple of drops of each color).

Roger Hicks · Sep 10, 2007

max_ebb said:
I realize they come in light and dark, but how light is light, and what if you need something in between shades, or what if the lightest shade isn't light enough? With a brush, you have have an infinite number of shades. To me, that means I have more control, and more control makes the job easier.

In the end, it all comes down to personal preference, and what one is more comfortable using.

No-one could argue with your last sentence; all I am doing is passing on the information from the best spotter I know. There are 10 shades of SpotPen, and when Frances has finished spotting a print, I literally can't find the spotting, even when I know where it is. She wouldn't use SpotPens unless she found them superior to dyes; I certainly wouldn't want her spotting my prints with anything but the best. Their advantage is the same as their drawback: they sit on the surface for a little while, like a pigment, so they can be wiped off if you get it wrong, but then they sink in, like a dye, so you can't see 'em.

dslater · Sep 10, 2007

max_ebb said:
Yes, I allow the dyes to dry completely on the glass, and I use a small piece of wet/damp cloth for the brush. I dampen the brush on the cloth, then daub the dye to pick up some color, then wipe some of the dye out of the brush on the wet cloth if I'm spotting a light background. You can practice on a light part of a scrap photo to get a feel of how much dye you're picking up on the brush, and how light you can get it by wiping it on the damp cloth.

I store my 'palette' (piece of glass with dried dye on it) with a piece of paper over it to keep dust off. Even when I was printing commercially and spotting every day it was months before I'd need to add any more dye to the glass (starting with just a couple of drops of each color).

Thank you for the description. I'll definitely give it a try. It certainly sounds easier than what I've been doing.

Dan

dslater · Sep 10, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
No-one could argue with your last sentence; all I am doing is passing on the information from the best spotter I know. There are 10 shades of SpotPen, and when Frances has finished spotting a print, I literally can't find the spotting, even when I know where it is. She wouldn't use SpotPens unless she found them superior to dyes; I certainly wouldn't want her spotting my prints with anything but the best. Their advantage is the same as their drawback: they sit on the surface for a little while, like a pigment, so they can be wiped off if you get it wrong, but then they sink in, like a dye, so you can't see 'em.

Hi Roger,
Do you know if these pens work well on a negative for correcting a pinhole?

Dan

Roger Hicks · Sep 10, 2007

dslater said:
Hi Roger,
Do you know if these pens work well on a negative for correcting a pinhole?

Dan

Dear Dan,

Yes I do know, and no they don't work. Or at least, we've not bothered to find out. The way we fix pinholes is normally pigment + retouch of the print; trying to get clever with pinholes on a neg is, in my opinion, more trouble than it's worth, so we've never tried that hard. Besides, it's not a problem we get a lot of, so we've little incentive.

Cheers,

Roger

dslater · Sep 10, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Dan,

Yes I do know, and no they don't work. Or at least, we've not bothered to find out. The way we fix pinholes is normally pigment + retouch of the print; trying to get clever with pinholes on a neg is, in my opinion, more trouble than it's worth, so we've never tried that hard. Besides, it's not a problem we get a lot of, so we've little incentive.

Cheers,

Roger

Umm - I don't see how that would work. If there's a pinhole ( or more commonly dust on the neg when shooting ), then a black spot is created on the print. From what I understand, the only way to fix a black spot on the print is to use a knife to scratch off the silver and then spot the resulting whit spot. According to Ansel Adam's book "The Print" this is very difficult to do and he recommends you have a professional do it.

Dan

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