Scratched Rodagon Enlarging Lens?

[waffles]

I recently purchased a used Beseler 23C and I’m shopping around for a used enlarging lens for it. I’ve settled on Rodenstock, and have been looking at the Rogonar S, Rodagon, and Apo Rodagon N.

First question: Which element is considered the “front” element of an enlarging lens. I’ve been told that even minor scratches on the “front” element of an enlarging lens can ruin a print. But is the “front” element the side facing the negative or the side facing the paper? If we were talking about a camera lens obviously it would be the side facing the subject. But it seems like some people refer to the anatomy of an enlarging lens differently.

Second question: Are apochromatic lenses really worth it? I seem to be able to find regular Rogonar / Rodagon lenses in decent condition for around $40-50. But the Apo Rodagon N and the Apo Rodagon D lenses sell for ten times that! I’ve been able to find an Apo Rodagon N 80mm for only $125 ... but it has scratches on one of the elements (the side facing the paper.) I’m not sure if that’s considered a minor or major problem, see Question 1.

Third question: The Beseler 23C can take negatives up to 6x9cm, which would correspond to a 105mm enlarging lens. Right now I’m primarily shooting 6x6cm, which would correspond to an 80mm enlarging lens. Is there any disadvantage to going with the 105mm? Say, if I was comparing the Apo Rodagon N 80mm to the Apo Rodagon N 105mm? I ask because I found a 105mm in very good condition without scratches for $400 which might be a better value than the 80mm with scratches.

Fourth Question: Do you know anybody who repairs enlarging lenses? Are replacement elements for enlarging lenses even available?

Thanks for your help.

 

[MattKing]

In order:
1) good question! I've always assumed that the front element is the one pointing toward the paper, not the negative, but I've never really thought about it!
2) The APO lenses are the best in the manufacturer's line, and definitely are better than a Rogonar 4 element lens. But if you are making smaller prints, you may have trouble detecting the difference between an APO Rodagon and a "plain" Rodagon in good condition.
3) Snap up the 105mm APO Rodagon N! If you find yourself needing more magnification down the way, it is relatively easy to locate a good quality 80mm lens for that purpose. I use a 105mm for small prints from 6x6, as well as most prints from 6x7. I do have 80mm and 90mm lenses for when they are needed.

 

[waffles]

1) good question! I've always assumed that the front element is the one pointing toward the paper, not the negative, but I've never really thought about it!

Its not immediately intuitive what people are taking about, though. In a taking lens, the "front" points towards the subject and has all the controls that the user manipulates, while the "back" is hidden inside the camera body most of the time. But in an enlarger, the subject is the backlit negative, right? So wouldn't the "front" be the side that's hidden inside the enlarger most of the time, while the "rear" is the side that points towards the paper and has all of the user controls?

 

[MattKing]

The back element is usually the element closest to the lens mount.

 

[waffles]

So, this discussion is ultimately about scratches on an enlarger lens. There is also an Apo Rodagon N 80mm available for $125, but it has a prominent scratch in the middle of the element that faces the paper (whether that is "front" or "back" I don't really care.) What I do care about is final print quality. Now, if I was buying a taking lens, I wouldn't have to worry too much about scratches on the "front" element. You can still take high-quality pictures. But I have heard that enlarging lenses are different, and you're more likely to see problems if the "front" element is scratched.

 

[BMbikerider]

The problem arises with a scratched lens when light strikes it passing through the scratched element where the light is dispersed inside and then reflected back and forward so reducing contrast. If the scratch is on the element closest to the paper the light will be coming through the lens before reaching the scratched element and exiting towards the paper, but will have no other glass to pass through to lower the contrast. In this scenario there would be no discernible problem unless you were using below the lens filters for multigrade paper. Even then the effect would almost certainly be unnoticeable.

Thinking about it there could be more effect when using a negative carrier which has an upper glass with an Anti Newton Ring surface and how many problems are there from them? Any light passing through such a glass will already be minutely dispersed anyway, even before it reached the upper surface of the enlarging lens.

IN 'Waffles' post above, 'having heard that enlarger lenses are different' I think can be largely ignored. The only difference optically with enlarger lenses and camera lenses in general is that enlarger lenses are designed to give their best performance at much closer distances than other optics. (As are Macro lenses) With respect, the 'having heard' quote can largely be ignored without definitive evidence from an optical scientist to the prove the statement. Think 'Chinese Whispers' in this case.

 

[bernard_L]

I found a 105mm in very good condition without scratches for $400

Snap up the 105mm APO Rodagon N!

Matt, did you read up to and including the price? IMO, the difference in price between a $400 Apo Rodagon and a plain Rodagon might find better uses in starting a darkroom. E.g. a f-stop timer, paper to experiment and learn, and whatnot.
I've printed for years using a supposedly poor EL-Nikkor 75/4, now I have a Componon-S 8/5.6, and have yet to see the difference. Focusing at full aperture,; printing at f/8, 11, 16.

 

[Johnkpap]

In regards to Enlarging lenses, any 6 element and some 4/5 element lenses from A MAJOR maker that is coated and in good condition will be fine up to 16x20...., a Rodagon, Componon or a El Nikkor will be fine and at $60-80 each you can buy more than one..APO lenses are only really needed if you have reason to regularly print poster size in color.

Scratched lenses:- If the price is right buy it !!! I have found that a small scratch does not make a hell of a lot of difference

Exceptions:-
I have two lenses of the 4 element design that give me exceptional results they are the 161mm 4.5 Kodak Ektanon and a 75mm f4.5 Schneider comparon :- both these lenses give outstanding performance, each one was bought for $10.00 or less. I have printed with theses lenses and compared the results to El Nikkor 80mm and a Rodagon 80mm as well as a El Nikkor 135 and a Rodagon 150mm..... I like the results better from the $10 lenses best :- I won "Portrait of the year" with a print made with the 75mm lens at my local camera club one year.

Stay away from "Astron", "Paterson" 50mm 3.5 ect lenses the corners are soft at 8x10 :-yes you can see it with the naked eye

*Note this is a personal opinion, and I print at F8 90% of the time, and I am using Pro grade Durst Enlargers

Johnkpap

 

[BMbikerider]

Matt, did you read up to and including the price? IMO, the difference in price between a $400 Apo Rodagon and a plain Rodagon might find better uses in starting a darkroom. E.g. a f-stop timer, paper to experiment and learn, and whatnot.
I've printed for years using a supposedly poor EL-Nikkor 75/4, now I have a Componon-S 8/5.6, and have yet to see the difference. Focusing at full aperture,; printing at f/8, 11, 16.

I too have a NIkkor 74/4 and a 80/5.6 Rodagon and have no problems with either. The Nikkor is slightly easier to focus, having a wider max aperture.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

My advice if you are on a budget is to forget about manufacturer and concentrate on quality. Pretty much any six element lens by Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, Minolta, Nikon, Computar, etc will deliver excellent results. Skip the four element lenses. They can be good, but over a shorter range. APO lenses are a bit of a waste of money in my opinion unless you are planning on doing color. You would be better off spending money on a laser alignment tool than an APO lens. If you have the money though, get the APO lens and a laser alignment tool. Any good printer will tell you that an aligned enlarger is the first step. If your enlarger isn't aligned it won't matter what lens you are using.

With all the enlarging lenses available out there, don't buy one unless it is pristine. Every print you make is gong to go through it, so don't try to save money with one that is scratched.

 

[guangong]

There is a difference between a “scratch” and “scratches”. I once had a Hassy lens front element with what could be called a gash rather than a scratch ( which was why I could afford it way back when) and it had absolutely no effect on print. Abrasions from cleaning can effect performance. Once had an APUG seller try to sell me the idea that all!!! used lenses had scratches and cleaning marks. Needless to say I avoid buying anything from him.
So, if just one big scratch, I would ignore the scratch, if more than one or abrasion from careless cleaning...walk away.
Almost forgot, my 38mm Nikon lens was bought cheap because of scratch. Image quality is perfect.
t

 

[StepheKoontz]

You would be better off spending money on a laser alignment tool than an APO lens

Any recommendations on an alignment tool?

 

[MattKing]

Matt, did you read up to and including the price?

I may have missed it, but when I made my post I was under the impression that the OP had not yet included the price, and therefore assumed that it was a price that was suitable for him/her.
If I had been aware of the $400 price, I wouldn't have recommended it unless the OP's needs were for the type of demanding large enlargements that the APO lenses are ideal for.

 

[gorbas]

Any recommendations on an alignment tool?

https://www.versalab.com/PARALLEL.html

 

[Patrick Robert James]

https://www.versalab.com/PARALLEL.html

Yup. that is the standard. You could make your own of course, but why bother? It is worth every penny.

 

[mgb74]

With respect to the 105mm for 6x6, I would not be concerned if you have the XL column on your 23c. Unless you want to make large prints or heavily crop your negatives.

 

[Tim Stapp]

Regarding an alignment tool, I read somewhere a well known printer using a pencil and a piece of glass to align his enlarger. Do a Google search.

 

[John51]

Regarding an alignment tool, I read somewhere a well known printer using a pencil and a piece of glass to align his enlarger. Do a Google search.

Was that Fred Picker? 4 new pencils, unsharpened at one end and an eraser at the other. A piece of glass that protudes 3 sides of the neg carrier opening. The 4 pencils will show when everything is level.

There is a difference between a “scratch” and “scratches”. I once had a Hassy lens front element with what could be called a gash rather than a scratch ( which was why I could afford it way back when) and it had absolutely no effect on print.
t

fwir, the press guys would deal with a bad scratch on a camera lens by painting it matt black. A Sharpie could be used nowadays.

 

[Jim Jones]

The cheapest (and one of the best) alignment tools is a piece of film that has been sanded lightly with coarse and fine sandpaper. Project this onto the easel and adjust the enlarger until all four corners of the image are sharp.