Schneider 300mm APO Symmar and Zone VI 4x5?

Michael Simon · Mar 30, 2020

Hello! First time posting!

I recently purchased a lovely lot of 4x5 gear, including a Zone VI (#2116) 4x5 field camera and the 300mm mentioned above. I do not have access to the photographer that used this gear as I purchased it from his ex wife.

It seems that the 300mm will not mount through the bellows. The lens board attached to the 300mm is a 4x4 size, which is for my camera. The rear element is too large. I'm assuming the original photographer mounted this lens as it's on a 4x4 board? Am I missing a trick to actually get it mounted? I don't want to try and force it through the bellows frame, it's very tight and does not seem close to fitting through.

Anyone have any experience with this lens and this camera? Or perhaps he had an 8x10 at some point and this 300mm was never for the 4x5?

Thank you in advance!

EDIT: it's a Copal 3 shutter.

shutterfinger · Mar 30, 2020

The standard rule of thumb is to remove the rear lens cell from the shutter by unscrewing it, install the lens board with shutter and front cell on the front standard, remove the camera back or focusing panel if a graflok/international back, insert the rear lens cell through the rear of the camera and attach it to the rear of the shutter, reinstall the camera back or focusing panel. A 300mm lens will require 12 inches of bellows draw to achieve infinity focus and an additional 2 to 3 inches for closer focus down to 8 to 10 feet.
If you don't have sufficient bellows draw then the lens won't work even if you fit it.

ic-racer · Mar 30, 2020

That lens is going to be difficult to use on that camera. Maybe sell it for another.

Michael Simon · Mar 30, 2020

ic-racer said:
That lens is going to be difficult to use on that camera. Maybe sell it for another.

I agree, it's a huge lens and feels wrong on this lightweight camera.

Michael Simon · Mar 30, 2020

shutterfinger said:
The standard rule of thumb is to remove the rear lens cell from the shutter by unscrewing it, install the lens board with shutter and front cell on the front standard, remove the camera back or focusing panel if a graflok/international back, insert the rear lens cell through the rear of the camera and attach it to the rear of the shutter, reinstall the camera back or focusing panel. A 300mm lens will require 12 inches of bellows draw to achieve infinity focus and an additional 2 to 3 inches for closer focus down to 8 to 10 feet.
If you don't have sufficient bellows draw then the lens won't work even if you fit it.

Ahhh, that does make sense. Thank you.

DREW WILEY · Apr 1, 2020

That lens is awfully big and heavy for a small wooden field camera to try to support steady. Look at something compact like a Nikkor 300 M.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 2, 2020

If you have the last model Zone VI camera, i.e., the larger one with 450mm+ of bellows draw, bail back, etc., you should be able to use the larger 300mm lens on it; it's pretty sturdy. That said, the mounting hassle would be enough for me to acquire a different 300mm lens. You don't need all the image circle a big 300mm Plasmat projects anyway.

The 300mm Nikkor M that Drew mentions is nice. The Fujinon C is similar. If you can find a Fujinon A series in that focal length, grab it fast!

Best,

Doremus

Michael Simon · Apr 2, 2020

Thanks everyone,

I mounted the lens and it’s honestly just wonky. Way too big as most everyone suggested. Pardon my ignorance. But is the weight/hugeness connected to the Copal 3 shutter, or the f5.6 size of the glass, or both? I love the brightness of the 5.6 aperture. Am I able to buy a great but smaller 300mm with a smaller shutter and larger than f9 opening?

edit. The price on the Nikon lens is killer.

Bob S · Apr 2, 2020

Michael Simon said:
Thanks everyone,

I mounted the lens and it’s honestly just wonky. Way too big as most everyone suggested. Pardon my ignorance. But is the weight/hugeness connected to the Copal 3 shutter, or the f5.6 size of the glass, or both? I love the brightness of the 5.6 aperture. Am I able to buy a great but smaller 300mm with a smaller shutter and larger than f9 opening?

edit. The price on the Nikon lens is killer.

Both.
You are probably stuck with a slower lens in 300mm

locutus · Apr 2, 2020

Mind, that due to how the optics work out (incident angles of rays projected to the focal plane) long focal lengths look brighter then you would expect on the ground glass.

A 300/9 will look brighter then a 150/5.6 stopped down to f/9 does to the eye.

I have a APO-Ronar 300/9 for my Shenhao 5x4 and i find that a perfect combination.
Tiny, sharp, more then enough room for movements and really no hassle at all to focus on the GG in most all conditions.

jimgalli · Apr 2, 2020

Keep the lens because you'll get GAS like all the rest of us and when an 8X10 lands at your house, you'll have a lovely and competent lens. It's bound to happen.

DREW WILEY · Apr 4, 2020

No need for a huge lens on 8x10 either. But draft horse sized studio plasmat lenses do tend to be cheaper these days.

Michael Simon · Apr 4, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
No need for a huge lens on 8x10 either. But draft horse sized studio plasmat lenses do tend to be cheaper these days.

Thanks to the education from this thread, I’ve listed the husky Schneider 300mm for sale on eBay, and I have a minty Nikon 300m f9 on its way to me right now. Excited!

DREW WILEY · Apr 4, 2020

I was shooting a Nikkor 300M on 4x5 yesterday. It's a wonderful lens.

Bob S · Apr 4, 2020

Michael Simon said:
Thanks to the education from this thread, I’ve listed the husky Schneider 300mm for sale on eBay, and I have a minty Nikon 300m f9 on its way to me right now. Excited!

Wait till you have the new lens and do your own head to head comparison between them. If both fit your camera,

DREW WILEY · Apr 6, 2020

The point is that it's not all about the hypothetical optical pro or con. A monster studio plasmat has no advantage whatsoever except ridiculous image circle overkill. The extra weight and bigger shutter is going to be an outright liability on a little 4x5 field camera, making the front greatly more susceptible to vibration, leading to LESS sharp images. But that Nikkor M is going to outperform it even optically if there were a side by side optical bench test; and even it will cover 8x10 with conservative movements. With 4x5, just the center of the optic is being used, with the lesser number of air/glass interfaces yielding higher contrast and microtonality, along with exceptional sharpness, and slightly better hue rendition than a plasmat, if color photography is involved. That little 300M is so precise that I even use it for 120 roll film backs, with the enlargements being fully equal to those from my very best dedicated MF camera lenses.

Michael Simon · Apr 6, 2020

Would anyone be interested in offering an opinion about my eBay listing of this 300mm lens? I fully realize the current market will instruct me eventually. But, I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on if I'm being silly with the price vs the condition vs the actual value. I've sold lots of 35mm / Med format gear over the years, but this is my first foray into large format equipment. I see a few of the same lens being sold via Japanese sellers for $1200+. I see some that have actually sold for $640 - 880 recently.

Schneider-Kreuznach Apo-Symmar 300mm

DREW WILEY · Apr 6, 2020

Just gotta take your best guess, and if it doesn't work out, adjust the price. I'd list it at true asking price, and not solicit a frustrating bid war. It's tricky right now not only due to financial uncertainty, but due to that fact that even tax returns are still not known by many yet. Don't factor in fishing expedition extreme prices - this is not a "cult lens", but is a very good choice for someone doing studio or still life work with a solid 8x10.

Michael Simon · Apr 6, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Just gotta take your best guess, and if it doesn't work out, adjust the price. I'd list it at true asking price, and not solicit a frustrating bid war. It's tricky right now not only due to financial uncertainty, but due to that fact that even tax returns are still not known by many yet. Don't factor in fishing expedition extreme prices - this is not a "cult lens", but is a very good one.

super level headed advice, thanks. Yeah, I have listed it at a "buy it now" price so no bidding. At some point I'll open it to "best offer" as well.

Schneider 300mm APO Symmar and Zone VI 4x5?

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