Schneider 240mm f5.6 - 420mm f12 convertible lens

[John Wiegerink]

I have these lens elements (240mm f5.6 - 420 f12) and want to buy a shutter to put them in. I know it's probably a Compur rim-set shutter, and was wondering what other lenses might also use the same exact shutter size. With Copal shutters you can usually tell by the stamped number on the bezel of the shutter itself, but how do you tell the difference in the later Compur shutters?

 

[David Lindquist]

1966 Schneider literature I have shows the 240mm Symmar was mounted in the "II/5 2" Compur shutter. This would be the No. 2 Rim-set Compur with the "II/5" indicating a tube length of 25 mm. Tube length is the distance between the front and the back that the lens cells seat against. Diameter of the thread screwing in to the shutter is 45.8 mm, thread pitch is 40 threads per inch (as far as I can tell why this is not a metric thread is lost in antiquity.) Unlike the No. 1 Compur, front and rear threads are the same diameter. Shutter's top speed is 1/200; X synch. only. Diameter of the shutter is 78.1 mm. These dimensions are from a Compur Werke parts/service manual.

Other Schneider lenses using this size shutter, including the tube length, were the 150 mm Xenotar and the 165 mm Angulon.

BIG CAVEAT: 1970 Schneider literature I have (post discontinuation of the No. 2 Compur) shows these lenses in a No. 3 Electronic shutter.

Hope this helps.

David

 

[John Wiegerink]

1966 Schneider literature I have shows the 240mm Symmar was mounted in the "II/5 2" Compur shutter. This would be the No. 2 Rim-set Compur with the "II/5" indicating a tube length of 25 mm. Tube length is the distance between the front and the back that the lens cells seat against. Diameter of the thread screwing in to the shutter is 45.8 mm, thread pitch is 40 threads per inch (as far as I can tell why this is not a metric thread is lost in antiquity.) Unlike the No. 1 Compur, front and rear threads are the same diameter. Shutter's top speed is 1/200; X synch. only. Diameter of the shutter is 78.1 mm. These dimensions are from a Compur Werke parts/service manual.

Other Schneider lenses using this size shutter, including the tube length, were the 150 mm Xenotar and the 165 mm Angulon.

BIG CAVEAT: 1970 Schneider literature I have (post discontinuation of the No. 2 Compur) shows these lenses in a No. 3 Electronic shutter.

Hope this helps.

David

Yes, it helps a lot. At least I know what I'm looking for anyway. Conveying it to a potential seller might be a whole new can of worms.

 

[reddesert]

Since you have the lens cells, measure their thread diameters to be sure they match the stated shutter. Compur #0 and #1 shutters are the same size as the corresponding Copal, but Compur II shutters are a world of incompatibility unto their own (by reputation; I've avoided ever actually needing one).

 

[John Wiegerink]

Since you have the lens cells, measure their thread diameters to be sure they match the stated shutter. Compur #0 and #1 shutters are the same size as the corresponding Copal, but Compur II shutters are a world of incompatibility unto their own (by reputation; I've avoided ever actually needing one).

Yes, it's very confusing for somebody like me looking to put a lens back into a lone shutter. You almost have to know someone who has actually done what you want to do. Those folks seem pretty far and few even on this site.

 

[abruzzi]

the problem is the two donor lenses David mentioned are more expensive than the lens you have, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if your lens was a donor to one of them.

 

[John Wiegerink]

the problem is the two donor lenses David mentioned are more expensive than the lens you have, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if your lens was a donor to one of them.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking after David's post. I think I'll just set back and watch the big auction site for a 240mm/420mm with bad glass and buy it just for the shutter. If one ever comes up?

 

[David Lindquist]

the problem is the two donor lenses David mentioned are more expensive than the lens you have, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if your lens was a donor to one of them.

Even as I was writing I was thinking these two lenses wouldn't be reasonable donor candidates given their usual asking prices.

Looking further in my contemporary literature I found that the Rodenstock 360 mm Apo-Ronar and 180 mm Ysarex came in the No. 2 Compur as did Goerz Optical Co.'s 9 1/2 inch Dagor and 12 inch Red Dot Artar. Unfortunately tube length isn't given and asking prices for some of these are apt to be up there too.

For sake of completeness, the Schneider 180 mm Xenar came in a No. 2 Compur but with the "6/II" tube length = 30.8 mm.

Back then Schneider made two versions of the 240 mm Tele-Arton. One for 6.5 x 9 cm came in a No. 1 Compur; the one for 9 x 12 came in a No. 2 Compur with the same tube length as for the 240 mm Symmar. Maybe these are not so sought after and so may be more reasonably priced? Differentiatng the two versions could read on the no. 1 Compur's top speed of 1/400 vs. The No. 2's top speed of 1/200.

Finding a 240 mm Symmar with one or both cells bad would have not only the advantage of a reasonable price but also would provide the proper aperture scales.

David

 

[David Lindquist]

Here are the pages from Compur-Werk that I referenced: https://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/compur-repair/02-01.html
Click on "Suivante" to go through the specifications for the Compur 00, 0, 1 (which for some reason isn't explicitly labeled that), and 2 plus the No. 3, 4 and 5 Compounds.

David

 

[John Wiegerink]

David,
Thanks for that information and it gives me a couple more alternatives to watch for. I'll scan the big auction site, daily, until I find what I need. I'm in no big hurry, and something is bound to show up sooner or later.

 

[jimgalli]

Another lens that has displaced some 240 -420 cells from their shutter is the early Dagor type G-Claron 300mm f9. Yes, the more common later plasmat version is Copal 1. A month ago I bought a Tele Arton 360 from KEH in the Electronic 3 shutter for 129 bucks totally to get that shutter, although the lens is very nice. In theory, my 270mm Graphic Kowa f9 which needs 56mm Copal 3S should have fit the 56mm bushings that the Tele Arton came in. But even when all those ducks are in a row, you still have machine tolerances that cause a misfit. The Graphic Kowa was so tight in the Schneider bushing I didn't pursue it, I may get some lapping compound and see it I can persuade, but once aluminum binds in brass threads, you're pretty much whistling dixie. Best advice is to put your cells on ebay and send them to the next owner.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Another lens that has displaced some 240 -420 cells from their shutter is the early Dagor type G-Claron 300mm f9. Yes, the more common later plasmat version is Copal 1. A month ago I bought a Tele Arton 360 from KEH in the Electronic 3 shutter for 129 bucks totally to get that shutter, although the lens is very nice. In theory, my 270mm Graphic Kowa f9 which needs 56mm Copal 3S should have fit the 56mm bushings that the Tele Arton came in. But even when all those ducks are in a row, you still have machine tolerances that cause a misfit. The Graphic Kowa was so tight in the Schneider bushing I didn't pursue it, I may get some lapping compound and see it I can persuade, but once aluminum binds in brass threads, you're pretty much whistling dixie. Best advice is to put your cells on ebay and send them to the next owner.

Without any documentation saying what lens cells fit it what shutters everything is hit and miss. It really makes it a gamble when trying to find and buy a shutter for a set of lens cells. For me, I'll just set back and wait until a proper shuttered lens comes along with bad cells. If the price is right I'll buy it. If it's not, I'll just keep watching and waiting. I'm in no big hurry.

 

[abruzzi]

the later era of compur/copal 0, 1, & 3 makes reshuttering really easy (with the exception of the 3S issue), and I've done it with about a half dozen lenses from a mamiya 50/6.3 up to an Apo Ronar 480/11. The only issue being aperture scales, but if you only use later shutters with equal distance per full stop, thats really easy to solve too.

 

[Chuck1]

I saw a 240 for sale on ebay today might be the compur2 you're looking for

 

[Chuck1]

the later era of compur/copal 0, 1, & 3 makes reshuttering really easy (with the exception of the 3S issue), and I've done it with about a half dozen lenses from a mamiya 50/6.3 up to an Apo Ronar 480/11. The only issue being aperture scales, but if you only use later shutters with equal distance per full stop, thats really easy to solve too.

The mamiya 50/6.3 is a copal 1?
Would that cover 6x12?

 

[abruzzi]

the Mamiya Press 50 ƒ6.3 fits a copal 0, and probably does not cover 6x12. I haven't tried much in the way of movements on 6x9, but thats what it was designed for, so I doubt it has much circle beyond that.

 

[BlueWind]

My Symmar 1:5,6 /240 1:12/420

Symmar 01 by João Avelar, no Flickr



The shutter is a Linhof COMPUR

[/URL
]

 

[John Wiegerink]

My Symmar 1:5,6 /240 1:12/420

Symmar 01 by João Avelar, no Flickr



The shutter is a Linhof COMPUR

[/URL
]

Do you use yours much and if you do how do you like it?

 

[BlueWind]

John
I don't use it much yet, and I currently use it only with paper negatives - I need to build /find a developing tank to 5x7 negatives, and to make some changes in my small darkroom in order to process them.. Moreover, the camera is a studio camera, so my experiments so far are only in controlled lighting conditions. So my opinion must be taken with caution.
I am satisfied with the lens and the (paper) negatives. I scan them and they look sharp enough even in the corners.
I hope to have (and show) some results in a couple of months.
I read that the lens can be inverted - but this is not my way for now
Best regards
Joao

 

[abruzzi]

I need to build /find a developing tank to 5x7 negatives

a Stearman 810 daylight developing tray can be configured to develop 2 5x7 at a time. It can also handle 4 4x5 or 1 8x10. depending on your needs it may be a good option.

 

[BlueWind]

a Stearman 810 daylight developing tray can be configured to develop 2 5x7 at a time. It can also handle 4 4x5 or 1 8x10. depending on your needs it may be a good option.

Thank you Abruzzi, I was not aware of that possibility.
And there is the possibility of getting one from from FotoImpex, in Berlin (no custom duties).
Good sugestion !!!
Regards
Joao

 

[Tim Stapp]

I have these lens elements (240mm f5.6 - 420 f12) and want to buy a shutter to put them in. I know it's probably a Compur rim-set shutter, and was wondering what other lenses might also use the same exact shutter size. With Copal shutters you can usually tell by the stamped number on the bezel of the shutter itself, but how do you tell the difference in the later Compur shutters?

John, I have purchased this shutter/lens: If I can ever find it after three moves and a flood later, I'll show it to you so that you have some additional Info. It will be a couple of weeks until I can do a deep dive search for it. It may be buried within two step kids belongings. Side note: I got tired of paying for two adult children's (step children's) storage units so I agreed to let them store their things here. They buried my things.

 

[John Wiegerink]

John, I have purchased this shutter/lens: If I can ever find it after three moves and a flood later, I'll show it to you so that you have some additional Info. It will be a couple of weeks until I can do a deep dive search for it. It may be buried within two step kids belongings. Side note: I got tired of paying for two adult children's (step children's) storage units so I agreed to let them store their things here. They buried my things.

No problem Tim! I'm just going constantly check the big auction to try and find one with bad lens elements or a defective shutter on the cheap. As for your kids and their "stuff"? You should have told them "my stuff will be up front and easy to get at". Too late now.

 

[Tim Stapp]

YUP! I'll probably never see it again! My wife is asleep, so I can state this: these are my Stepp Children, not my Stapp Children