Scanning with EPSON scan software (or similar) numbers to judge good exposure

StoneNYC · Jun 9, 2013

I mostly post on APUG but this is certainly a DPUG question...

So, I'm someone who develops my own film, but I have never printed in the darkroom, I have an enlarger now, but it will be sometime before I can set it up and print. In the mean time I always sort of think my exposures are pretty good, and yes B&W has great latitude as far as exposure, and I'm sure every film is different, but there are basic tone adjustments on the epson scan, I can't seem to figure out silverfast at all, I feel like a cave man trying to operate a jet plain with it... so I'll stick to just talking about the epson scan program for now.

There are basic black, white, and center sliders with numbers like Black:87 Center:1.31 White:212 so what do these numbers mean? and how can I tell before the auto adjustment sensor exposes them "correctly" what the numbers would be for a "perfect" exposure? I want to know this so I can adjust my shooting to really hone my shooting so I can print my images best once I get the enlarger set up. Also, if you go to correct a poorly exposed image too much granular issues (for example if you want to bring up the detail in the shadows, if you bring it up too much, you end up seeing white spots in the full black areas even if the shadows look ok, this doesn't usually happen with the auto setting, but it can... so I'm trying to understand what numbers would be best as a starting point so that I can try to expose film so that those numbers will stay constant because my exposures are spot on.

I know this is again probably dependent on the film, but I'm not sure how much...

Does this make any sense and am I on some kind of correct path?

Thanks!

~Stone

Richard S. (rich815) · Jun 10, 2013

Firstly forget Epson scanning software get Vuescan (VueScan Scanner Software for Windows 8, Mac OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion), Linux, iPhone, iPad, iPod, Android)

Then go here: Ken Lee Gallery - Scanning Tips (with EPSON and VueScan Software)

MattKing · Jun 10, 2013

Hi Stone:

The numbers themselves are essentially arbitrary.

The range of dark to light is arbitrarily divided up into 256 different tones, where 256 is maximum light and 1 is maximum dark.

This division has nothing to do with the film - it is just a division of the scale of values that the software and computer hardware uses.

When you scan the film, there is a whole bunch of digital processing happening. The scanner and software try to take the data that results from the physical operation of the scanner and the densities in the film and turn it into a range of digital values.

It may be that the "granular" shadows you see have nothing to do with the exposure of the film. That exposure may be spot on, when you consider the subject. The granular nature of the resulting digital file may very well be due to the scanning software trying to deal with the highlights.

For problem negatives, have you considered doing a scan that favors the shadows, a scan that favors the mid-tones and a scan that favors the highlights and then using HDR to adjust between the results?

StoneNYC · Jun 10, 2013

MattKing said:
Hi Stone:

The numbers themselves are essentially arbitrary.

The range of dark to light is arbitrarily divided up into 256 different tones, where 256 is maximum light and 1 is maximum dark.

This division has nothing to do with the film - it is just a division of the scale of values that the software and computer hardware uses.

When you scan the film, there is a whole bunch of digital processing happening. The scanner and software try to take the data that results from the physical operation of the scanner and the densities in the film and turn it into a range of digital values.

It may be that the "granular" shadows you see have nothing to do with the exposure of the film. That exposure may be spot on, when you consider the subject. The granular nature of the resulting digital file may very well be due to the scanning software trying to deal with the highlights.

For problem negatives, have you considered doing a scan that favors the shadows, a scan that favors the mid-tones and a scan that favors the highlights and then using HDR to adjust between the results?

Thanks Matt, I'm sure you found this from my APUG comment haha.

Well for one I have no idea how to make one of those HDR things.

But that's another matter.

I've noticed that the white spots in the shadows only appear if I SEVERELY alter the automatic chosen points.

This all started when I wanted to include the sprockets or frame edges, the scanner couldn't handle the extra white and was making the blacks grey. So I would individually write down the auto numbers then adjust the frame, then fix the new auto setting back to the earlier one with better blacks.

Now I've noticed when I over expose the sky purposely it doesn't like they either so I would only select a non-blown out area to auto expose then reframe for the entire image including the sky, then adjust the numbers again.

Point is I don't often make an exposure mistake where the white spots show up after re-adjustment, I was more using that as an example of how I can tell I'm adjusting enough it would be hard to potentially print in the darkroom.

But the auto setting for the blacks and whites seem to be very different from film to film. (Not so much within a given roll as I'm pretty consistent with my exposures). I just want to know if they are accurate. I want to do more color E-6 films and want to hone my exposure skills before spending the money on E6 which is of course much more expensive. And also more particular to error.

Thanks Matt.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Alan Klein · Jun 11, 2013

Try scanning flat and do the adjustment in post. It's faster as you don't have to keep scanning if you don't like the scan settings. when not scanning flat.

StoneNYC · Jun 11, 2013

Alan Klein said:
Try scanning flat and do the adjustment in post. It's faster as you don't have to keep scanning if you don't like the scan settings. when not scanning flat.

Haha Alan,

I'm trying to determine what the "flat" numbers are... That's the point of this post... The software seems to automatically adjust and there isn't a way to turn it off so trying to figure out what the flat numbers would be...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Alan Klein · Jun 11, 2013

Stone: Wich model are you using? I'm using the Epson V600. I use Professional Mode with the Epson software it came with. Make sure everything is off on the first screen. Also, click on Configuration at the bottom and shut off everything (No Color Correction) when the next screen opens up. See if that makes a difference. Alan

StoneNYC · Jun 11, 2013

Alan Klein said:
Stone: Wich model are you using? I'm using the Epson V600. I use Professional Mode with the Epson software it came with. Make sure everything is off on the first screen. Also, click on Configuration at the bottom and shut off everything (No Color Correction) when the next screen opens up. See if that makes a difference. Alan

Thanks ill look for "professional" mode but I don't have any screens the way you're describing... I'll look.

You sound more like you're talking about silverfast which I can't get working.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Alan Klein · Jun 11, 2013

I'm using Epson software that came with the Epson V600. I don't have Silverfast. Which model scanner are you using?

StoneNYC · Jun 11, 2013

Alan Klein said:
I'm using Epson software that came with the Epson V600. I don't have Silverfast. Which model scanner are you using?

Sorry, the v750 which comes with both EPSONscan and Silverfast 6(free upgrade to 8 if you have a new Mac OS).

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pellicle · Jul 10, 2013

Hi

StoneNYC said:
... so I'll stick to just talking about the epson scan program for now.

which is functional, basic, but enough to get you what you need.

There are basic black, white, and center sliders with numbers like Black:87 Center:1.31 White:212 so what do these numbers mean?

basically its like this:
as far as the data is concerned
0 is black
255 is white

the scanner takes what is not ultimate black or ultimate white and attempts to convert what it sees to something digital and within the range of 0 to 255.

and how can I tell before the auto adjustment sensor exposes them "correctly" what the numbers would be for a

don't ... always use 'manual' and adjust by hand.

I want to know this so I can adjust my shooting to really hone my shooting so I can print my images best once I get the enlarger set up.

what you are talking about is densitometery .. scanners can be used for densitometery.

You need to make measurements that are (more or less) absolute. To do this you need to keep everything as constant as possible. To do this you need to do a "linear" scan. Then you need to work out the scanner's reaction to light. I suggest a Stouffer step wedge (cheap) will allow you to do this.

in my view ...: Epson 4990 response testing

this is all perhaps more than you need to do unless you want to follow the Phil Davis "beyond the zone system"

Personally all I try to do is work out what density range I need for a print and then work out how to expose / develop for that.

it is not totally down your path, but you may find some of the concepts on my old web page
Using digital tools with film
helpful ...

Does this make any sense and am I on some kind of correct path?

I think it does, and I think you are on the right path.

I know that you are printing and not scaning for digital processing, but there are perhaps points of usefulness in this post on my blog

in my view ...: black and white neg scanning

HTH

StoneNYC · Jul 10, 2013

pellicle said:
Hi

which is functional, basic, but enough to get you what you need.

basically its like this:
as far as the data is concerned
0 is black
255 is white

the scanner takes what is not ultimate black or ultimate white and attempts to convert what it sees to something digital and within the range of 0 to 255.

don't ... always use 'manual' and adjust by hand.

what you are talking about is densitometery .. scanners can be used for densitometery.

You need to make measurements that are (more or less) absolute. To do this you need to keep everything as constant as possible. To do this you need to do a "linear" scan. Then you need to work out the scanner's reaction to light. I suggest a Stouffer step wedge (cheap) will allow you to do this.

in my view ...: Epson 4990 response testing

this is all perhaps more than you need to do unless you want to follow the Phil Davis "beyond the zone system"

Personally all I try to do is work out what density range I need for a print and then work out how to expose / develop for that.

it is not totally down your path, but you may find some of the concepts on my old web page
Using digital tools with film
helpful ...

I think it does, and I think you are on the right path.

I know that you are printing and not scaning for digital processing, but there are perhaps points of usefulness in this post on my blog

in my view ...: black and white neg scanning

HTH

Hi,

Thanks,

I wasn't as confused with the 0 and 255 numbers, I assumed that was black and white, why the automatic was 10 and 200 instead is beyond me unless its to protect from blown highlights and loss of shadow detail.

My main concern was the OTHER sliders and numbers above that which coincide to the histogram.

But I've figured out that the "perfect" numbers are 100 for blacks, 1.00 for center, and 200 for white, not sure what they "mean" but that seems to give what I see when I look at the neg and say, oh I think that looks perfect density, or oh that's too dark, or too light, at those numbers it seems to coincide.

Thanks again.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pschwart · Jul 10, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Hi,

Thanks,

I wasn't as confused with the 0 and 255 numbers, I assumed that was black and white, why the automatic was 10 and 200 instead is beyond me unless its to protect from blown highlights and loss of shadow detail.

Auto settings clip both ends of the scale for exactly the reason you mention, but this will often result in the loss of significant exposure data. Much better to turn off all the auto settings in whatever scanning software you are using and manually set the black and white points for each individual negative.

StoneNYC · Jul 10, 2013

Thanks.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pellicle · Jul 10, 2013

Glad that you found the way to get the results you need.

Couple more points
- always scan as positive, the software employs a curve to the data otherwise
- there are two sliders at the bottom (well four really) , one sets the output numbers and the other the input. You want them both set at their fully off points. Meaning if the scanner reads zero it puts zero in the file.

StoneNYC · Jul 10, 2013

pellicle said:
Glad that you found the way to get the results you need.

Couple more points
- always scan as positive, the software employs a curve to the data otherwise
- there are two sliders at the bottom (well four really) , one sets the output numbers and the other the input. You want them both set at their fully off points. Meaning if the scanner reads zero it puts zero in the file.

I've heard that but I've never been able to figure our how to convert it to a negative in Lightroom...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pellicle · Jul 10, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I've heard that but I've never been able to figure our how to convert it to a negative in Lightroom...

since you are asking about printing, its irrelevant. Just record the numbers and then work with them

Heck, you don't even NEED to scan, only prescan and explore with the mouse and note your numbers. Just "invert" in your head or on paper.

If you do not scan as linear you will have unpredictable numbers from your densitometery (due to curves). I've never used lightroom but in every other application I've ever uses it was stunningly simple ... something like "invert"

PS: ... 5 seconds of google typing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVl1uDVpMPU

StoneNYC · Jul 10, 2013

pellicle said:
since you are asking about printing, its irrelevant. Just record the numbers and then work with them

Heck, you don't even NEED to scan, only prescan and explore with the mouse and note your numbers. Just "invert" in your head or on paper.

If you do not scan as linear you will have unpredictable numbers from your densitometery (due to curves). I've never used lightroom but in every other application I've ever uses it was stunningly simple ... something like "invert"

PS: ... 5 seconds of google typing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVl1uDVpMPU

I'm asking about preparing for FUTURE printing, years from now.

I didn't understand most of what you said ... "Record the numbers then work with them" work with them where?

I need to scan them if I want to display them anywhere. And recording the numbers doesn't help me, not does inverting them, invert what? I don't even know what you mean.

I don't understand densitometry nor curves at all.

I just understand what I see, I want to know what looks right and then expose that way consistently.

Anyway my question is kind of solved anyway.

I appreciate you trying to help but your knowledge base is way beyond mine in this aspect and you're speaking calculus when I can only do addition and subtraction.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pellicle · Jul 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I didn't understand most of what you said ... "Record the numbers then work with them" work with them where?

In the darkroom ... to know what is the density that prints as you want it.

I need to scan them if I want to display them anywhere. And recording the numbers doesn't help me, not does inverting them, invert what? I don't even know what you mean.

Its a negative right?
Black is white white is clear? Right? Inverting that brings black to black and white to white?

Did you watch that video? You can see he inverts that line...

I don't understand densitometry nor curves at all.

Ohh. And from the sound of that you seem to be wanting to stay that way right?

So what exactly were you hoping for here?

I just understand what I see, I want to know what looks right and then expose that way consistently.

Expose the film as you expose it, from what you have said that will be all you need to do.

When you start printing you will perhaps understand what it was that I wrote.

Keep it in context of what I saw were your initial questions

so I'm trying to understand what numbers would be best as a starting point so that I can try to expose film so that those numbers will stay constant because my exposures are spot on.

StoneNYC · Jul 11, 2013

pellicle said:
In the darkroom ... to know what is the density that prints as you want it.

Its a negative right?
Black is white white is clear? Right? Inverting that brings black to black and white to white?

Did you watch that video? You can see he inverts that line...

Ohh. And from the sound of that you seem to be wanting to stay that way right?

So what exactly were you hoping for here?

Expose the film as you expose it, from what you have said that will be all you need to do.

When you start printing you will perhaps understand what it was that I wrote.

Keep it in context of what I saw were your initial questions

I still don't understand about the darkroom how the numbers will help there. I can't move a slider on my enlarger...

The point is to refine my shooting so when I do print my system / times are semi-consistent.

I've already sort of answered my own question as I mentioned.

So thanks. In a way I do want to stay uneducated. I don't like curves and all that density bullshit, it's not art, I only need to know that my exposure is consistent.

I appreciate you trying to help, I want to be clear about that I'm not trying to dismiss you or sound like I'm not appreciative. I just don't (I have the mental capacity but I enjoy it to such a little degree that I would quit photography before I would stare at a graph rather than look at an actual photograph to determine if it was exposed right.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

pschwart · Jul 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
In a way I do want to stay uneducated. I don't like curves and all that density bullshit, it's not art, I only need to know that my exposure is consistent.

Making art requires technique and discipline; these are not BS. There are lots of tools you can use, and you can make significant strides without total immersion, but staying uneducated isn't going to make you a better photographer or printer.

StoneNYC · Jul 11, 2013

pschwart said:
Making art requires technique and discipline; these are not BS. There are lots of tools you can use, and you can make significant strides without total immersion, but staying uneducated isn't going to make you a better photographer or printer.

There are many talented and amazing well known and financially successful photographers who never looked at density curves etc, I choose to be one of those.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

L Gebhardt · Jul 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
There are many talented and amazing well known and financially successful photographers who never looked at density curves etc, I choose to be one of those.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Then you are making it harder for yourself. Plus most of the financially successful photographers who don't know anything about the technical aspects employ someone who helps them out (a lab or an assistant).

You don't need charts, but you do need to know what's going on with the film. Look for adequate shadow detail. That's set be exposure. Look for the correct contrast. That's controlled by development. Both are important whether you scan or print in the darkroom.

Alan Klein · Jul 11, 2013

Look for adequate shadow detail. That's set be exposure.

Isn't that true for negative film but not chrome? With chromes, you try to prevent over-exposing highlights even if the shadows go black because shots are lost if you burn the highlights.

StoneNYC · Jul 11, 2013

L Gebhardt said:
Then you are making it harder for yourself. Plus most of the financially successful photographers who don't know anything about the technical aspects employ someone who helps them out (a lab or an assistant).

You don't need charts, but you do need to know what's going on with the film. Look for adequate shadow detail. That's set be exposure. Look for the correct contrast. That's controlled by development. Both are important whether you scan or print in the darkroom.

Yes! The last paragraph has it down to a T as far as what I was trying to accomplish. Basically what was going on was I wanted to know what the "flat" or "baseline" was on the scanner, (which I discovered was 100 / 1.00 / 200 in the display, don't ask me what they mean but that it) now when I scan, I can start with that, scan, and see what I get, then if its exactly how I envisioned it, I can then analyze the negative and learn what a "perfect" negative looks like, then keep doing that to stuff and user stand when I've done it right then adjust my shooting technique to match that.

To me the experimentation is much better and using my eyes helps me, rather than staring at a graph curve thing.

Thanks L Gebhardt.

Your name sounds familiar. You're not the guy who left APUG when he had to switch to digital printing after having issues with darkroom plumbing etc. are you?

If you are I think I saw a book you wrote at Barns & Noble?

Or am I totally off base?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Scanning with EPSON scan software (or similar) numbers to judge good exposure

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