Scanning Pyro negatives

Curt · Mar 8, 2010

I have the Epson 4990 scanner. Do Pyro negatives require any special settings for scanning that non Pyro negatives use? For example should I use the color setting instead of BW negative?

Thank you,
Curt

mrred · Mar 8, 2010

That depends on your process. Scan them the way you would scan any other BW neg, and enjoy the extended dynamic range.

Loris Medici · Mar 8, 2010

I scan pyro negatives in RGB positive transparency mode then convert to grayscale in PS. I use channel mixer and the channels palette to decide which channel(s) are going to be included and how much, depending on the image plus the following factors: noise, sharpness, grain and tonality. I don't have a fixed formula for the conversion. I then continue with inversion, gamma adjustment (with levels tool, gray slider) and then local tonal corrections/manipulations...

Loris Medici · Mar 8, 2010

See this as an example:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/4150341092/sizes/o/

7.56 x 7.44mm crop of the original negative (1/15 times the area of the full frame), scanned with a Minolta Dual Scan III. Slightly underexposed Ilford Pan 100. (Should have rated it 80, not 100...) Souped in Pyrocat-MC.

pellicle · Mar 8, 2010

you could also scan in RGB positive, invert and then look at each of the channels and try blending them ... the stain may give different effects in the R G and B channels.

donbga · Mar 9, 2010

Curt said:
I have the Epson 4990 scanner. Do Pyro negatives require any special settings for scanning that non Pyro negatives use? For example should I use the color setting instead of BW negative?

Thank you,
Curt

I use Vuescan and scan pyro stained film in RGB and have the green channel converted to 16 bit grayscale (there is a setting in Vuescan that will do this automatically if it is turned on.)

Works for me.

Don Bryant

sanking · Mar 9, 2010

File sizes are a lot bigger when you scan a pyro negative in RGB rather than grayscale to be sure to test to make sure you are getting something for the effort. You will not get the kind of control of tonal scale that you get when scanning color negative film in RGB so all you really have to gain is less noise and perhaps sharpness.

Whether it is worth your time to scan pyro negatives in RGB is a scanner specific proposition. I gain absolutely nothing scanning in RGB with the Leafscan 45 because all three channels are equally clean (or noisy, depending on how you look at it). So I just scan in grayscale as it saves a lot of time. Same is true with the Evesmart Pro, nothing is gained by scanning pyro negative in RGB.

So do the test for yourself and make sure you are getting something in return for the bigger files.

Sandy King

donbga · Mar 9, 2010

sanking said:
File sizes are a lot bigger when you scan a pyro negative in RGB rather than grayscale to be sure to test to make sure you are getting something for the effort. You will not get the kind of control of tonal scale that you get when scanning color negative film in RGB so all you really have to gain is less noise and perhaps sharpness.

Whether it is worth your time to scan pyro negatives in RGB is a scanner specific proposition. I gain absolutely nothing scanning in RGB with the Leafscan 45 because all three channels are equally clean (or noisy, depending on how you look at it). So I just scan in grayscale as it saves a lot of time. Same is true with the Evesmart Pro, nothing is gained by scanning pyro negative in RGB.

So do the test for yourself and make sure you are getting something in return for the bigger files.

Sandy King

I'll have to review my pyro scanning methods though I recently scanned 3 MF Verichrome negatives processed in PMK and had Vuescan save the Blue channel to grayscale because I seemed to get smoother less grainy results with that method.

Don

Loris Medici · Mar 9, 2010

I don't keep the RGB file. I keep the converted grayscale file as master. Therefore size isn't much an issue, except for the case where your scanner's data transfer rate is too low. (Mine is connected through the FireWire port and scanning RGB or grayscale takes approximately the same time. In other words, I have nothing to loose doing that way. YMMV of course...)

Regards,
Loris.

Curt · Mar 10, 2010

Loris, which scanner has a firewire connection? I'll have to scan in different modes and see what's going to be best.

Loris Medici · Mar 10, 2010

I was referring to my Epson 2450. (I think most of the Epsons, at least high-end(!) ones have it.) OTOH, USB 2.0 isn't much slower (if any) than FireWire...

sanking · Mar 10, 2010

Loris Medici said:
I don't keep the RGB file. I keep the converted grayscale file as master. Therefore size isn't much an issue, except for the case where your scanner's data transfer rate is too low. (Mine is connected through the FireWire port and scanning RGB or grayscale takes approximately the same time. In other words, I have nothing to loose doing that way. YMMV of course...)

Regards,
Loris.

I scan 5X7" negatives at 2540 spi. In RGB and 16 bit that gives me a file size of about 1.3 gig. Doing any kind of work on a file this size takes quite a long time with my system so unless there is something to be gained in terms of grain or sharpness it is much more convenient to just scan in grayscale. And with my scanners there is no improvement in image quality at all over just scanning in grayscale.

Sandy King

Curt · Mar 10, 2010

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions, I appreciate the help.

Curt

pellicle · Mar 11, 2010

Curt said:
Loris, which scanner has a firewire connection? I'll have to scan in different modes and see what's going to be best.

my Epson 4990 and 4870 and Nikon Coolscan 4000 all have firewire. On the Epson there is both that and USB 2.0 ... personally I can't tell any difference when scanning with either (and my Nikon scans are as fast as anyone elses so its not my hardware).

basically I think that its no biggie (unlike HD video)

sanking · Mar 13, 2010

For what it is worth I just made a comparison of a 6X12 cm B&W negative developed in Pyrocat-HD with the Epson V700, one scan in RGB, the other in Grayscale. I scanned both at 6400 spi, then reduced the size to 2540 spi for the comparison. After scanning I copied the Red, Green and Blue channels and compared each of them at high magnification with the same area of the scan made in Grayscale.

I found virtually no difference in either sharpness or grain between any of the three color channels or the grayscale file. If push came to shove I would say that the green channel had slightly finer grain than the grayscale file or the red and blue channels but in order to see the difference in a print would require a huge enlargement on the order of more than 10-15X.

My personal conclusion is that it would be pretty much a waste of my file space to scan with the V700 a B&W negative developed in a staining developer in RGB since there is virtually no difference in image quality from scan in grayscale.

Sandy King

Loris Medici · Mar 14, 2010

Thanks for the trouble Sandy. With my Minolta Dual Scan III, I happen to get different histograms in each channel and usually choose the widest one to save as the master grayscale scan (and delete the RGB scan afterwards).

BTW, do you get something good from your new Noblex? I presume the negative you've scanned was from it...

Regards,
Loris.

sanking · Mar 14, 2010

Loris Medici said:
Thanks for the trouble Sandy. With my Minolta Dual Scan III, I happen to get different histograms in each channel and usually choose the widest one to save as the master grayscale scan (and delete the RGB scan afterwards).

BTW, do you get something good from your new Noblex? I presume the negative you've scanned was from it...

Regards,
Loris.

Loris,

I know that some scanners give a better scan in one of the channels. That was the case with my 4990. My only point is that one should test their own scanner since the difference in file size between high resolution grayscale and RGB files is significant.

The Noblex is a lot of fun to work with, but also very challenging, both in terms of the complexity of the equipment and the vision to use it. But here is a scan from a negative I made a few days ago that came out nice. BTW, it is the negative I used to make the grayscale versus RGB comparison I described. The scene is in downtown Greenville, SC, only about five minutes by car from my home.

Sandy

Curt · Mar 14, 2010

That's a different look, by the way is Coke still only 5 cents there? I'm scanning Pyro negatives with grayscale and it's working fine.

Curt

Loris Medici · Mar 15, 2010

Nice image Sandy, I think the Noblex will be a favorite tool of yours once you've sorted out all its quirks.

Scanning Pyro negatives

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