Scan of a solargraphy

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norm123

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Hi all
I'm interested to do a solargraphy picture with a 4x5 pinhole camera for the first time.
I want to use a RC B&W negative paper. I'm not sure to record solar trails....maybe just the effect of sun on my house during 2 weeks or more.
I read that the scanner will vanish the image and the colors turn grey. How to preserve the image and colors right?
BTW if I put the paper in a selenium toner before the scan, is an interesting way to protect it from the light of the scanner?

Any tips or advise are welcome.

Norm
 

Grandpa Ron

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Norm, your message does not make sense?

You may understands what you mean by solar trails or the effects of the sun on your house but I have no idea what you mean.

I am also curious because I thought B&W RC paper changes contrast with the light source color, you indicate it shows color. Just a guess but I would think any photo sensitive paper that is run through a scanner without being properly fixed first would be changed by the scanner light.

This sounds like a very interesting project but what exactly are you trying to do and how do you plan to do it?

What am I missing?
 

radiant

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norm: just do it?

What I've understood there is no way to protect the image. This is not a normal paper exposure which you could just fix. I've heard the paper just turns into white when fixed.. I would guess selenium doesn't do a thing.

What you need to do is really dim your scanning room to darkness, prepare scanning software for DIRECT scan (no preview) and take the paper out from the camera, quickly place it on bed and just scan it. It's your one time change.

That's what I did:
 

Grandpa Ron

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Norm.

I believe I was confused by my interpretation of your post. When you mentioned when using a 4x5 pinhole camera, to expose photographic paper to sunlight to make a picture, I was thinking in standard photograph terms. That was a bad assumption on my part. :sad:

What you are doing is using a pinhole camera, to capture the image of the sun passing above, using the sunlight to photo-etch an image on a piece of photographic paper. The light causes the photo sensitive emulsion's base color to change. When scanned, this change of emulsion color, do to the sunlight's surface photo-etching, can be manipulated in post processing. There are no photo chemicals involved, only the color change to the emulsion color.

It is easy to see why such photos fade but it is a clever technique.
 
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norm123

norm123

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Danube7

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Hi all
I'm interested to do a solargraphy picture with a 4x5 pinhole camera for the first time.
I want to use a RC B&W negative paper. I'm not sure to record solar trails....maybe just the effect of sun on my house during 2 weeks or more.
I read that the scanner will vanish the image and the colors turn grey. How to preserve the image and colors right?
BTW if I put the paper in a selenium toner before the scan, is an interesting way to protect it from the light of the scanner?

Any tips or advise are welcome.

Norm


Hi Norm,

I am new to this forum and this is my very first post. I came here to ask a question about Solargraphy and I did a quick search on the topic to see what came up and I found your post. Were you able to get a sufficient answer to your question and have you succeeded at taking some solargraphs? In any case I think I can answer your question and will add my comments here for completeness.

First of all, for those who are unfamiliar with it, solargraphy is a process by which long duration (days, weeks, months...) exposures of the sun are taken with a pinhole camera (perhaps other types) which produce a record of the passage of the sun for the duration of the exposure. It's a VERY slow process, and generally the only things that are recorded are those that are very bright (like the sun, or reflections of the sun) and those that stay very still (like buildings, rocks). I don't claim any credit for the process. To give credit where credit is due, I first saw the technique used for the "Astro Photo of the Day" from January 15th, 2009. It was taken by a photographer named Justin Quinnell from Bristol, England, and I don't know if he discovered the process or not, but that's the first time I saw it. I have been working on solargraphs since then.

The process I use involves a pinhole camera, in my case a soda can, and a piece of photographic paper. I use Ilford MG IV, mainly because it was the first paper I was able to find locally in a camera store, but it turned out to be a fortuitous choice. I expose the film from a few days to up to 6 months, from solstice to solstice, after which the sun re-traverses its arcs through the sky, tending to (but not necessarily) obliterate the tracks it left on the film. After the exposure, there is a *visible* image on the paper, albeit dim and of low contrast some times, but visible. There is no chemical development required at all. At this point I scan the image, and the rest of the process is digital. I adjust brightness/contrast, the overall tone of the image, and saturation, but I do NOT colorize it. The color comes out of the process, remarkably. Remember, this is B&W film. Fortuitously, when the negative is taken, the sun tracks tend to be yellow, the sky tends to be blue, and the foreground subjects in silhouette tend to end up in the brown/green end of the palette.

Below is one of my earliest examples, an exposure of about 3 days, taken between snowstorms during the "Snowmageddon" winter of 2009-2010. Note the soft image of the snow, e.g. in front of the posts in the foreground. This is not because of the pinhole camera but due to the snow slowly melting over the course of the exposure. The technique tends to leave ghostly images. But there are also horizontal streaks across the frame. These are scanner artifacts due to non-linearities or defects in the CCD pixels. The extreme contrast adjustment needed to produce a decent image also brings out every defect of the scanner. You need a good scanner that can be calibrated before each scan. They don't need to be expensive. A basic modern Canon can do it. But the old scanner used for this photo was a 1995 vintage HP 6250 that used a VERY bright cold-cathode fluorescent lamp and a relatively insensitive CCD.

And yes, to partially answer your original question, the scanner DID wipe out the image. After the first scan, the image began to lose contrast. After the second scan, the entire paper began to get pink, and the image was visibly damaged. I put the paper away in a dark place and forgot about it.

One more detail which turns out to be relevant: This first attempt was made on Ilford MG IV RC glossy paper. That caused some internal reflections off the film in my camera, which resulted in additional tracks of the sun being recorded on the film. I removed those digitally, manually, to clean up the image. You can see hints of them to the left and right of the main arc.


House_from_Mailbox_December_2009_RemoveWaterSpots.jpg


Ok, so now is where things get weird. *Months* later, I looked in the box in which I had stored the original photo, and I pulled out what you see below. In this case, the image is NOT digitally enhanced in any way. Most importantly, I did NOT take the digital negative on it. Look carefully - it's a positive! The only thing not inverted is the main track of the sun (and to a lesser degree the reflections on either side). It's this sort of behavior that fascinates me, and has kept me playing with this technique for 10 years now... no, 12.

I do not know exactly what is going on here. I am not making any claims to be Ansel Adams, but this looks like some kind of "Solarization". More correctly, after reading Neblette ("Photography, It's materials and processes", 6th Ed. 1954) this may be the Sabatier effect. But most of the descriptions of solarization effects involve some form of chemical development in the steps of the process. But as mentioned, there is no chemical development here. All this occurs with light, and the film itself, in two steps (exposure and scanning).

The image below has been kept in the dark, unfixed, and has been stable for years. After my experiences with the cold-cathode scanner, I realized I needed something that gives me a second shot at capturing a good digital image. I switched to an LED-based scanner, one that can be calibrated before the scan to eliminate horizontal banding. The LED scanners use perhaps 100x less light than the cold-cathode scanners to collect an image. They do NOT alter the image, even after multiple exposures. This makes sense. The exposure of the original image is a very long exposure. There is so much light the image is actually "printed out" on the paper. My guess is that if you developed it, it would immediately turn entirely black (except for maybe some weird solarization effects?). So a small amount of exposure from the LED scanner is not going to affect the image. I normally handle the paper under red light, but I have had no adverse effects from short exposures to dim room light.

So, again, to answer the original question, a modern LED-based scanner will NOT erase the original solargaph image.

So, I hope I have answered your questions and you find this post interesting. And if there are any film experts who see this and have some Idea of what is going on with the image reversal, please let me know. I would very much like to learn more about the physics and chemistry of the process.

Thanks,

Dan

HouseFromMailboxAutoSolarized_Rescaned2012_01_08_90_173_255.jpg
 

Donald Qualls

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If you (optionally, if you're after more than the printed-out image) develop and fix your paper, then wash it properly, it won't change over time, and need not be stored in a dark location to preserve it.

Fixer will remove the silver halide from the film or paper, without disturbing the developed or printed-out silver metal (the actual image) -- and thus make the paper no longer sensitive to light.
 

removed account4

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Hi Donald

That works with a normal image and lumen prints but not an image created by a silver stain. Solargraphs are like the images first made by Nicéphore Niépce. He used an obscura (camera) and salt-paper. From what I have read, this first photograph is in a museum in a dark room and I think it has turned completely grey.
here it is before. ... it was made in the 1820s. >>> https://allthatsinteresting.com/first-photograph
If image made by long exposure fixer it will turn the paper white, if it is developed the paper will turn black. I don't do solar graphs ( they take too long and I like instant gratification! ) but I've been making lens based camera based images and photograms and contact prints this way for a long time and realized that simple silver gelatin emulsion, without all the additives that modern photo paper seems to have in it, last longer ... how much longer? not sure, but I have some that look exactly like they looked 15 years ago, they haven't been in a protected environment. They were photograms made with plain old liquid light ( you'd have to ask them what their emulsion is but I think it is a chloro-bromide variant ) and I'm sure a camera based image would be similar. I've also gotten color images when I made long exposed in camera exposures with b/w paper that had been soaked in dektol before I put it in the camera. fun stuff :smile:. I've gotten my exposures down to less than 15 minutes depending on the amount of sunlight.

==
Danube7,
That is pretty amazing. I don't know how that worked either other than photo-magic. Have you tried to take the same type of photo paper and make a photogram in the sun with it, and store it the same way? It might solarization ( im clueless ) cause there are still chemicals in the paper even after you long exposed it, and those chemicals are still light reactive and that is why the stored prints typically turn grey. You are very lucky to be able to save your images as you do, last summer I threw out hundreds long exposures and sun prints after they turned grey. I think of these things as ephemeral -- ez come, ez go :smile:
Have fun !
John
 

Donald Qualls

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That works with a normal image and lumen prints but not an image created by a silver stain. Solargraphs are like the images first made by Nicéphore Niépce. He used an obscura (camera) and salt-paper. From what I have read, this first photograph is in a museum in a dark room and I think it has turned completely grey.
here it is before. ... it was made in the 1820s. >>> https://allthatsinteresting.com/first-photograph

I don't at all get the difference between lumen prints (printed out, usually on materials using developed out) and "silver stain". I do, however, know that Nicephore's 1826-27 (I recall it was originally listed as1829) image had no silver at all (bitumen, hardened by exposure to light, and developed by dissolving the unhardened tar with naphtha and oil of lavender). I can't think of a mechanism whereby such an image, once developed, could turn "completely gray" -- it's pretty faint, but it was pretty faint to begin with (probably could have used another day or two of exposure).
 

removed account4

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niepce's images that I am talking about, the retina prints were salt+silver prints, not the asphalt ones ...
sorry I linked to the wrong article. ...
"For his first experiments , Nicéphore Niépce positioned at the back of a camera obscura sheets of silver salts coated paper, known to blacken with daylight . In may 1816 he produced the first image of nature : a view from a window . It was a negative and the image vanished because in broad daylight the coated paper becomes completely black . He calls these images “retinas“ . "
https://web.archive.org/web/20150214065202/http://www.niepce.com/pagus/pagus-inv.html
the difference between these prints and lumen prints is that with lumen prints when the organic material is sandwiched with the photo paper
chlorophyll and juices from the plants commingle with the heated emulsion sweat and there is a chemical reaction that takes place.
chlorophyll is a developing agent and there are other chemicals within plants that also work to develop the paper when its in contact with it
(put a slice of tomato on some photo paper and stick it in the sun and you will see what i am talking about there's Vit c in tomatoes too )
with long exposed photo paper ( like a retina print or solar-graph &c )
there is no chemical reaction other than the stain of the image, whether it is a contact print, a photogram or camera image ( like a solar print )
the prints I have made with a camera I can tell you from personal experience, they turn white in fixer and black in developer. there have been experiments
where people have treated regular photo paper with salt peter to try to get the image to be kept on the paper but it really doesn't work well, sometimes
soaking the paper post exposure in various concentrations of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate works to stabilize the image,
I've had varying degrees of success doing that, NedL has had better luck with fixing his solar prints ...
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/how-to-fix-a-solargraph.72/
I just use bottled or hand made emulsion, seems to work OK
 
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Donald Qualls

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Hmm. Seems like there's some "novel" chemistry going on with those solargraphs.

Niepce's "retina" prints were just lacking fixing, hence why they turned black in broad daylight. If your solargraphs are producing an image in black, that's printed out silver (produced by the halide getting enough exposure not to need development. The silver grain may be fine enough to bleach away quickly in rapid fixer, however (this has been a reported problem with microfilms used in camera, where as little as fifteen minutes in rapid fixer caused loss of Dmax). Have you tried a weak solution (30-60 g/L, or 1/8 to 1/4 normal fixer strength) of plain hypo? Alternatively, plain salt water is reported to be an extremely slow fixer (24 hour soaking time for conventional develop-out enlarging paper); this might work for your solargraphs.
 

Danube7

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Hmm. Seems like there's some "novel" chemistry going on with those solargraphs.

That's why I'm here on this forum! The image reversal business is pretty funky stuff. Also most of the literature seems to be based to some extent on a process that involves chemical development, not "printing out" as solargraphs are. I don't want to hijack this thread away from the original topic so I will raise this issue in a separate post.

Niepce's "retina" prints were just lacking fixing, hence why they turned black in broad daylight. If your solargraphs are producing an image in black, that's printed out silver (produced by the halide getting enough exposure not to need development. The silver grain may be fine enough to bleach away quickly in rapid fixer, however (this has been a reported problem with microfilms used in camera, where as little as fifteen minutes in rapid fixer caused loss of Dmax). Have you tried a weak solution (30-60 g/L, or 1/8 to 1/4 normal fixer strength) of plain hypo? Alternatively, plain salt water is reported to be an extremely slow fixer (24 hour soaking time for conventional develop-out enlarging paper); this might work for your solargraphs.

I have not tried any chemistry, though I am tempted to at some point. Generally, when I take the film out of the camera, I scan it and I am done with the paper (though I save it for posterity, and science). It's not clear if the OP has even tried making solargraphs yet, though I hope he does.

Also, John, thanks for clarifying that point about Niepce. That permanent image from his house in 1826/27 does not even have silver in it, but is made from "Bitumen of Judea", so I was a bit confused. I did not know about that image, but after looking it up, it's not really well explained. The process seems to produce a NEGATIVE, not a positive, and then if the underlying plate is oxidized or etched, it can be inverted. Or, if the bitumen is thin enough, perhaps interference effects can make the emulsion appear as a positive. Either way, it seems pretty delicate. I am not surprised it's fading after almost 200 years! But I am looking up sources of "bitumen of Judea" on-line. I've got to try this as a solargraph.....

Dan
 

Donald Qualls

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I think I recall Bitumen of Judea being the pitch of the middle eastern cypress tree (the misnamed "cedars of Lebanon" which aren't cedars at all), though you might be able to use common pine tar in its place. Pine tar can be obtained as (a component of) optical pitch from telescope making suppliers; it's used for polishing and figuring mirrors and lenses. Oil of lavender is still used as part of the lacquer that protects the finished collodion surface in wet plate photography. Naphtha is better known as lighter fuel for wick-type lighters; Coleman fuel or (generically) "camp fuel" is the same stuff -- we called it "white gas" when i was a kid.
 

removed account4

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daylight. If your solargraphs are producing an image in black, that's printed out silver <...> Have you tried a weak solution (30-60 g/L, or 1/8 to 1/4 normal fixer strength) of plain hypo?

Hi Donald
I know what the retina prints were, I have been making them for 15 +, almost 20 years ! :smile:
they are fun to make on glass with liquid emulsion and with salted paper in the sun..
When I asked Wolfgang Moersch ( as in Moersch photochemistry ) he is the one who called it an unfixable stain, Ron Mowrey ( PE ) told me the same thing
good luck developing and fixing them !

But I am looking up sources of "bitumen of Judea" on-line. I've got to try this as a solargraph.....

Dan
hi dan
yea that's a physautotype
they aren't hard to make but really fume-heavy white gas is no fun
there used to be someone here named heather who made them, I think the thread says what she used..
they take a long time to expose, not sure how well they will work in a pinhole camera..
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/physautotype-my-first-go.33794/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/physautotype.23786/
 
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